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VOICEOVER: This is Alumni Aloud, a podcast by Graduate Center students for Graduate Center students. In each episode, we talk with the GC graduate about their career path, the ins and outs of their current position, and the career advice they have for students. This series is sponsored by the Graduate Center’s Office of Career Planning and Professional Development.

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ERIN JOHNSTON, HOST: Welcome to another episode of Alumni Aloud. I am so happy to welcome our guest today, Dr. Mawia Khogali. Thank you for being here with us today!

MAWIA KHOGALI, GUEST: Thank you for having me.

JOHNSTON: So, it would be great to kick this off with you telling us briefly about yourself, about your time at the Grad Center, and maybe also your work today.

KHOGALI: Yeah, sure. So, I was enrolled in the doctoral program in Psychology and Law at the GC, starting in June—sorry, woah—September 2014, and graduating in May 2019, so just about that five-year mark, and my specialization was in research pertaining to plea bargaining and later policing. So, for those of you who aren’t familiar with the Psych and Law program, we’re trained essentially as social psychologists, but our area of specialty is studying the criminal justice system and the different ways in which a psychological phenomenon may impact, you know, fairness and equity and things of that nature. So, I graduated in 2019. During my time while I was enrolled in the program, but then after as well, I was working at the Vera Institute of Justice as an applied research fellow, and then ultimately joined full-time as a research associate, and then I went on to work at the Center for Policing Equity for the last five years, in different capacities, but ultimately my work there centered around creating products, programs, and services that promote racial equity in the public safety system. So, I was trained as a social psychologist, have been an applied researcher and practitioner for the last seven years or so.

JOHNSTON: Wow! Okay, so that’s a lot of important work you’ve been doing.

KHOGALI: Thank you.

JOHNSTON: Yeah, no, thank you! One question that we like to ask here at Alumni Aloud is, what questions drove your research while you were at the Graduate Center?

KHOGALI: Yeah, that’s a great question. So, I always had an interest in the idea of racial inequity in the criminal justice system, and the different ways in which it could surface. So, originally, for the first two years of my program, I was really interested in looking at plea bargaining outcomes that may be impacted by a defendant’s race, and a couple of other factors that intersect with race, such as their age or their gender, and then that evolved into, as I began to really explore the criminal justice system and recognizing how policing was at the forefront of all contact with the criminal justice system and really represented the greatest likelihood of how somebody experiences the criminal justice system, I kind of transferred my interest into really exploring that more, and so I was really interested in questions around the impact of a person’s different social characteristics, such as their race, gender, and age, on how police officers perceive them and how that impacted things like use-of-force decisions and the way that they evaluate how resistant or disrespectful someone is being. So, my dissertation actually looked at that question of what impact race, gender, and age have on officer decision-making around use-of-force, and how does that also tie in with how community members evaluate those same interactions. So, to put it in a nutshell, it was really around trying to understand what opportunities for racial inequity exist within different facets of the criminal justice system, namely policing encounters, and then earlier on in my academic career, plea bargaining decision-making, as well.

JOHNSTON: And do you find that these questions have continued to influence your work?

KHOGALI: Yeah! That is the essence of what I do to this day. I’ve done it more in applied capacities. During my doctoral studies it was very experimental, and then I kind of went into more of a mixed-methods and applied application of those questions, but it’s still the essence of what it is that my work centers around: really just trying to understand how to identify racial inequity in the criminal justice system, and then now extending that a little further, what are the different ways we can address it to remedy it.

JOHNSTON: So, you would say that your dissertation research has influenced your career and also has helped people in that career as well, and in the work that you’ve been doing.

KHOGALI: Absolutely. And I will add that in my dissertation, because I had to actually recruit law enforcement officers to participate, it gave me firsthand exposure to actually working with the group that I’ve become very interested in doing a lot of this work around, so it was a really good foot in the door for forging those types of relationships. So, I, to this day, will talk about my dissertation, not as an academic, but in just the ways that those questions still come up and the experiences I had while conducting it are still very relevant to my experience today in, you know, professional settings.

JOHNSTON: That’s great. I know you kind of touched upon the steps that you went through after you graduated, but what steps would you say really led to your position at the Center for Policing Equity?

KHOGALI: Absolutely the fellowship that I did at Vera. That was an excellent opportunity to, kind of, get exposed to applied work. It gave me the skillset that I needed to pursue a full-time career because I was doing a lot of work I would go on to do as a research associate there. But I will also say that that fellowship was my first opportunity to really engage with applied work. The Psych and Law program gives excellent foundational training in social psych methods, and you’re trained really well as an experimental psychologist, but what I didn’t get was that opportunity to really see what it would look like to not work in academia, and not work in a typical R1 institute where you’re just driving primary research. And so, I really appreciated the fellowship for giving me that exposure. And I can also say that other students who came on after me also pursued the fellowship and said similar things. So I think that that’s a good opportunity in general. Fellowships are always—I would always encourage grad students to pursue them.

JOHNSTON: And were you doing the fellowship while you were still at the Grad Center, or was it right after?

KHOGALI: It was in my fourth year, so—and the time commitment was about 21 hours a week, so three days a week, I was going—or well, two days of the week I was going in and one day was remote (this was before the pandemic, so I think now things are probably a little bit more flexible). But by then I was done with my coursework, so it wasn’t too hard to balance it out. I would recommend, you know, waiting if you can until you’re at the end of the finish line with coursework for practical reasons. But it wasn’t the hardest. They also had—they had an academic year one and they also had a summertime fellowship, so if you wanted something more concise and not year-round from September to May, they did have a shorter, more concentrated version of it. I was able to do the full one, which I personally thought was more of an experience because I really got to see the full duration of a lot of the projects that I worked on. I imagine that some folks who did only the summertime fellowship, that was a lot more condensed and maybe didn’t give them the same level of exposure.

JOHNSTON: I was wondering also, did you—it seems that your research that you did in your dissertation, you were saying how it really does continue to drive your work today. Was there ever a point in between that you considered another career path, or that you thought of exploring another career path, or was it, kind of, set once you knew what you were so passionate about?

KHOGALI: I originally, in my first two years, wanted to be a full-time professor. And I will say, before I even had the opportunity to do the fellowship, I noticed that I wasn’t as passionate about a full-time career in academia as I began to recognize how much of a white ivory tower it really is and how disconnected, you know, academia is from the real experiences and lived experiences of most of the groups that we’re studying. And that was a frustration for me. And I couldn’t really pinpoint where it was coming from until I started doing applied work and I realized, “oh, there is a way to actually make use of the research we’re doing with the communities that are impacted by these phenomena. It’s not just about doing research for the sake of doing research.” And so, I had a reckoning with that desire to go on to aca—and I do still teach as an adjunct, so I still have been able to maintain the, you know, the experience of getting to teach without having to be bound by some of the restrictions that research in academia has. And I’d say, once I got into applied work, yeah, I was like, “oh, this is it. I think this is what I—this is my niche.” And I think, I think it’s also important to call out that what I was started doing as an applied researcher when I first went into this is not what I do now. So, my career within the applied sector has evolved substantially. So, when I first started out, I was doing more research-based activities, like more traditional applied research, like reading studies with police departments, doing technical assistance… and then in my last few roles in the Center for Policing Equity, it evolved more into more product development and program development work. And so, there is an opportunity to still cultivate your skillset as you do applied work. You are not bound to just one experience when you go into the applied sector. That’s another thing I appreciate about applied work. You can kind of carve your space, for sure, but you have opportunities to build different skillsets. And so, now I have a lot more transferable skills that I could even probably go into the tech sector if I wanted to because I’ve had exposure and built my skills in product development and product management. So, I will say, I think, even within applied work, what I thought I would be doing has shifted and continues to evolve over the years.

JOHNSTON: It seems like your—so your experience, from what I’m understanding, your experience working in this field and through the different things that you’ve done in the field, you’ve gained a lot of transferable skills, so not only for this area, but for other areas as well.

KHOGALI: Absolutely.

JOHNSTON: And those are important to the field that you are working in.

KHOGALI: Absolutely.

JOHNSTON: So did you find that, looking back at your time at the Grad Center now, how did Graduate Center contribute to your intellectual growth, and how do you feel like it might have prepared you for your career post-graduation?

KHOGALI: I think, my experience at the GC gave me the edge that I have in the applied space because I had that foundational quant training and experimental training that a lot of folks working in the applied space actually don’t have. So, I’ve been able to blend those two worlds in a lot of ways. And so, I’m grateful for the training I received, particularly in survey development because that is something that, as I have, you know, even when I was on the job market a couple of different times, I’ve noticed that that gave me a competitive edge over a lot of folks who might do good applied work but don’t have that quant training, as well. And then also having a network of support from the GC, like my mentors, the folks that—like, some of the folks that I was in the program with. These are some of my professional networks. And I am able to maintain that and see where folks are at, kind of keep up with things in a way that I wouldn’t have if I didn’t probably go to the GC. So, I’ve taken a lot from my time there.

JOHNSTON: So, one other question I have is, what challenges did you face throughout your career after you graduated. Was there anything specific that was a block in your road, or did it feel pretty smooth?

KHOGALI: I think it depends on what you think of as a challenge, and I think sometimes challenges are necessary for growth, so I wouldn’t discount anything that I’ve experienced. I think what doctoral training doesn’t prepare you for, and maybe this is not—because it’s just not the appropriate place for that to happen, but learning how to advocate for yourself in professional settings, right? Particularly as a woman of color, there were lessons that I had to learn going into the professional world about how to advocate for myself when it came to salaries and, you know, positions, and that, you know, obviously was not a conversation that I had when I was training as a doctoral student. And I think part of it is that, academics have a very specific training and avenue to, kind of, getting to their career, and sometimes that doesn’t look exactly as it does in practitioner settings. And so maybe there’s a disconnect, and so folks aren’t necessarily quick to have those same conversations. But, in a lot of ways, I think those conversations happen in academia, as well. So, I would say, you know, having those conversations with mentors, or what—I think that would be really critical, particularly for marginalized communities who don’t necessarily learn how to have those conversations because they’re taught to undervalue themselves in these spaces. So, I would say that was probably the biggest challenge that I encountered earlier on in my career, but I was fortunate enough to learn from pretty early on and have resources and folks who I did end up talking to and kind of getting the support I needed to learn. And from there it’s just about putting what you learn into practice. But I’d say that was probably the only real challenge I encountered after graduating. Like, finding a job—I think I would have had a different experience if I wanted to go into academia. I think I would’ve struggled a bit more, just because of how competitive the academic job market is, but I was fortunate enough that once I graduated, I’ve been able to pretty much find a job that I was interested in and aligned with my values pretty easily. Not necessarily right away. But, you know, with the right time and patience you can always find something.

JOHNSTON: So, uh, I guess to close off, what advice would you give to graduate students interested in pursuing a career in your field?

KHOGALI: I would say—and I think this is advice that anybody in graduate school could take, not necessarily just someone interested in Psych and Law: expose yourself to as many different opportunities as possible, because that’s the only way you can really learn if you like something or not. Sometimes we come into these spaces and, you know, folks that you may work with have fully formed opinions on what they think is best. And they have their lived experiences that may contribute and make those things legitimate, but you know what’s good for you and you should always take the time to explore and expose yourself to as many world views as possible. Don’t close yourself to one particular field just because you think it’s what’s best without even knowing what else is out there, because the only way that you will find out if you like something is if you try it. And you might not like it, and that’s fine, it’s okay! Right? It’s a process. It’s a learning process. And you’re still coming into yourself when you’re graduating. You’re still learning about what works for you and what doesn’t. You’re not going to get your dream job straight out of a PhD program. And if you do, that’s great! But it’s very unlikely. And so, it’s good to just build yourself up and learn what you like. Learn what environment you work well in and what not, because every job is different. And I’m glad that I didn’t limit myself in that way, and I was able to try different things. And you know, do the best job you can in every role you have, but beyond that, just be open to trying things.

JOHNSTON: Well, thank you so much for your time today and for answering all these questions. I’m sure the information is going to be very, very informative for our listeners. I really appreciate it!

KHOGALI: Thank you for having me, it was a pleasure.

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