(Music)

VOICE-OVER: This is Alumni Aloud, a podcast by graduate students for graduate students. In each episode we talk with a GC graduate about their career path, the ins and outs of their current position, and the career advice they have for students. This series is sponsored by the Graduate Center’s Office of Career Planning & Professional Development.

(Music)

CARLY BATIST, HOST: I’m Carly Batist a PhD candidate in Biological Anthropology here at the Graduate Center. I interviewed Dr. Melissa Wansin Wong, who received her PhD from the GC’s Theater and Performance program. She is now the Director of Institutional Relations at the Museum of Chinese in America. In this episode of Alumni Aloud, Melissa tells us about her path into the non-profit world, finding a work culture that fits you and the benefits of finding mentors outside of academia. So we can just start with who you are, what GC program you graduated from, and what you’re doing now.

MELISSA WANSIN WONG, GUEST: Ok. Hi, my name is Melissa Wansin Wong. So I’m an alumna of the Theater and Performance Program at the Graduate Center. And at present I’m the Associate Director of Institutional Relations at the Museum of Chinese in America in New York City.

BATIST: Cool! And can you trace the journey from end of the PhD to where you are now. How did you get here?

WONG: Wow. I think I can trace that journey even before I finished my PhD. So let me think back. So I think two years before I finished my PhD, while I was writing my dissertation, I realized that I’m probably not going to be an academic. I’m probably not going to go on a tenure-track search. And there were a couple of reasons for this right. So the first reason was that I knew that I wanted to stay in New York City. I’m an immigrant and my husband is also an immigrant so we have actually made very big life changes to be in New York City. I have been in New York City for about fifteen years now. So when I was about to finish my PhD I had been in the city for more than a decade. I’ve built communities, you know, I really love the city, I’m very comfortable in a multicultural city. So I didn’t really foresee myself taking a job just for the sake of taking the job regardless of location. So that was extremely important to me. And at that time I already also had a daughter so we were very, very settled in our home life here. And as you know, Carly, it’s very, very difficult to find a tenure-track job if you’re picky about the location. It’s even difficult when you’re not picky about the location. So…

BATIST: Right, right.

WONG: So, so that’s when I thought that I better look at other options. Another thing that took me away from the tenure-track was my experience of writing the dissertation. I love teaching, I love research, I love writing. But for me, writing the dissertation was a very lonely process. And I really discovered that I love working with people, I love being in a very interactive environment. That’s the reason why even as I was in graduate school when I was writing the dissertation, I was always interested in volunteering for board positions and committees and so on and so forth. I really loved that kind of work. And I loved teaching, but I thought ok like putting all these factors together, are there any other alternatives for me. And I started actually going to a lot of the events that’s been organized by the Office of Career Planning, started to think about alternatives in the non-profits. What are my strengths? What are my alternative, I wouldn’t say alternative but my transferrable skillset. And I actually met a lot of people at the Graduate Center at these events that led me to my current career. And I can actually trace the people that helped me get there. All connected to the Office of Career Planning, so I’m super, super grateful to the office. And that’s why I’m really delighted to be talking to you today.

So I was at an event and I actually met Dr. Effie MacLachlan. So she is the director of Grants and Research Programs at the CUNY Office of Research. She was talking about her job as a panelist and after the event I went up to her to kind of ask for advice and you know, if there are any paths for me outside of academia. And she actually, introduced me to her colleague at the CUNY Foundation-Dan Siepmann, who introduced me to my current boss. Because Dan actually worked for my current boss, Nancy Yao Maasbach, who is the president of Museum of Chinese in America. So that’s how I got my job really. It’s really interesting. And it wasn’t a normal track because when Dan introduced me to Nancy at MOCA, we actually talked on and off for about a year before she finally hired me because of various reasons. You know, of I guess staff numbers and budgets and so on and so forth. And during that one year, I actually met an alumna from the Graduate Center. She’s from the PhD program of Musicology. And she is now the Director of Development at the Kaufmann Music Center. So Brooke Bryant was also a panelist at another event that the Office of Career Planning organized.

And when the event happened I knew based on some assessments that I have done with Emily; she’s a career coach at the Graduate Center. So I did some career assessments with her and I realized that I was very much interested in development of fundraising. I’d actually done quite a bit of grassroots fundraising on my individual projects in my past career as a theater professional. And I’d kind of forgotten about that. I didn’t really think of that as a full-time career until I did the assessment. And then I did some further research and got really excited about it. And at that moment I met Brooke and she was instrumental in really giving me lots of advice and introducing me to professionalization organizations pertaining to fundraising. So in the year when I first met my boss, I started developing a lot of these I guess skills, through the professionalization organization. And by the time I officially interviewed for my position, I was ready to really clinch the deal if you want to put it that way. And you can see from my story that the Graduate Center was instrumental really in helping me kind of career transition from an academic path to a non-academic path that still strongly utilizes my skills that I have learned and accumulated during my you know, graduate studies.

BATIST: So you’re now working at the Museum of Chinese in America. What does that entail? Like what does a day or a week in the office, virtually nowadays, look like?

WONG: There are a lot of Zoom meetings.

BATIST: Yes *laughs*

WONG: So my job is to garner funding for the programmatic needs of the museum. So I work internally with the program directors and the program personnel. So I work with collections staff, exhibition staff, education staff, public program staff as well as you know, the executive committee of the museum to think about strategies to garner funding for each different department. And what I do is I match the mission and the programmatic opportunities of the museum with potential funders from the institutional side of things right. So in development there’s two big buckets. So there is individual giving, where you work with donors, major donors as well as donors that give you smaller amounts of annual gifts. And institutions. So I work on the institutional side of things. So I match the programmatic needs of the museum with the mandate of corporate, foundation and government partners.

Going back to what a day looks like, there’s lots of meetings. Talking about you know, how we could best fit our mandate with that of the institutions. There’s a lot of grant writing. And I think one of the reasons why I got this job is because of the writing skills right, that I practiced and finetuned in my time at the Graduate Center. There is a lot of data analysis. This is one thing that I learned on the job. There’s a lot of looking at spreadsheets, numbers, filtering information and so on and so forth. And there’s a lot of talking to people. Like talking internally to program people, talking to external partners. Corporations, foundations and all three levels of government. So in the MOCA institutional giving portfolio we’re very lucky to have the support of all three levels of government agencies-federal, state and city. So it’s very exciting, I’ve learned a lot, and the day is never boring. It’s very, very full.

And I think for people thinking about working in small culturals or small non-profits, something to think about is that it’s always a struggle financially in terms of manpower and capacity because everybody’s trying to do so much with so little. And with a lot of non-profits, small non-profits, we are always at the brink of not having enough cash flow for the next month.

BATIST: Right.

WONG: Very nerve-wracking. So what’s been great is that these foundations are seeing that it’s not sustainable and they’re really also trying on the foundation side of things to re-organize and re-look at their own grant-making practices to see how they could better help sustain small culturals like ours.

BATIST: So did you go in to the PhD wanting academia? That’s what you were aiming for or did you already kind of have a notion that maybe I’ll do something else, even at the beginning?

WONG: That’s a great question. And to be honest, when I went into academia, yes. I was thinking about academic as a career path, as a very attractive career path. But I know now that I wasn’t one of the students who was dead-set on it. So even from the very beginning I think I was ok if the academic path did not work out. And one of the reasons I applied to the PhD because of course I really enjoyed it, I really enjoyed the process. But it was also because it was a very expedient way of renewing my student visa. *laughs* So I came to the US to New York City to do my MA. Six months into the program I realized that I wanted to spend time in the United States. And that’s also a key reason why I applied for the PhD. It was just very expedient. *laughs* That’s the honest answer.

BATIST: I cannot even imagine having to deal with all of that. So was that something you also had to worry about when you were looking for jobs down the line? Or did you still have to have a company that sponsored you?

WONG: That is a really, really good question. And you know it’s quite a different situation for me because by the time I was finishing up the PhD, I had been already married for half a decade maybe. And I actually married an immigrant and his company was sponsoring so we didn’t have to worry about my status. So I think that I’m quite lucky in the sense that I didn’t have to worry about the visa. I think that’s not the case for a lot of students, with student visas. And I think it’s very, very difficult for students with student visas to actually work for a small non-profit because they don’t have the funds to hire an international person.

BATIST: So what was the biggest difference for you going from grad school to the quote-unquote real world? What was that transition like and what was the biggest thing that you had to get used to that you weren’t used to?

WONG: It’s very fast-paced. I’m not so sure whether it’s the same with all organizations but at our organization, there’s a lot of work and there’s not a lot of capacity, as is the case with most non-profits. So a lot of us are wearing 2-3 hats. So you know, we have something to do every single minute. I believe that in grad school you have more time to reflect, you have more time to think through things. And something that I miss about grad school in my job is that there’s very little time to reflect on what you’re doing. Because you’re always trying to chase the next deadline, right. And you’re always beholden to other people. I think in grad school, something that I liked and was also an impediment for me because of my personality was that when I’m just responsible for myself and just writing the dissertation, I procrastinated a lot. And I really hated myself for it.

I think that’s one of the reasons, Carly, I was telling you about the loneliness of writing the dissertation for me. And I think part of it is that it’s very hard to write a dissertation, right. It’s a very you know, it’s a process. And when you’re only responsible for yourself, you procrastinate because it’s so difficult. But when you’re beholden to other people, right, when your colleague says “I need this by 11, because if you don’t give me this, I’m not going to be able to do that.” Or when a 6-figure grant is due, you have to do it because if not you know, the museum doesn’t get $100,000 or something like that. Like oh my god, you know. *laughs* My head is on the line so I have to do it. So I think that’s the biggest difference but actually I like it. Because it actually takes me out of my normal very languid mode of doing things. And I think for my personality I need that kind of push. If not, I’ll just be staring at the page on the computer all day long. So I think that’s the biggest difference.

And then another big difference again, like I said before, is it’s very interactive and I really enjoy that. There’s a lot of teamwork, there’s a lot of talking about strategy, talking about you know, long and short-term goals. Which is very invigorating. And often in the dissertation writing process, you’re really talking to an audience of one, as you know, which is your dissertation advisor and maybe your committee members. And you know there’s a lot of great in-depth conversations that happen, but it’s you know, it’s just a very different experience.

BATIST: So you mentioned you work with a lot of different people and it’s interactive. What are the backgrounds of some of the people you work with? Are there other people from grad school? Is there kind of a big mix of different people with different backgrounds? And how does that kind of play into the work culture of the organization?

WONG: Yeah, sure. So I work in a minority majority organization and that’s been really comfortable for me because I am a minority in this country. So we have a lot of similar, kind of cultural affinities right. So it’s very comfortable working with them. And that actually reminds me of the idea of fit when you’re looking for a position. So I sent out about 40 resumes I think over 2 years. I was short-listed for about ten, and I made it to the final face-to-face interview for about four or five. And I think the reason that I got this job was not just because of my skillset, it’s because of the fit, right. So I could talk about the mission, I had an affinity with the staff members and so on and so forth. So that’s one thing.

In terms of the backgrounds of the staff members, they’re mostly from the humanities because it is a cultural organization. So people who have a background in the arts and culture, in collections, in art history. Our president, she actually started out in the theater and then she went to basically get her MBA and she also worked in other kind of like foreign policy organizations, she was a banker. So she has all of these myriad experiences that enable her to be a really good president. But I think what we all share in common is really our belief in the, in contributing to the diverse narrative of the United States, right. Like what does the American story mean? What does cultural identity? What does national identity mean? So these are all the things that we have in common. I think it’s very common in a lot of non-profits, right, where you share a deep belief of the mission that enables you to do your work.

BATIST: How was the job search and interview process like for you? Was there anything that surprised you in interviews or you know, how did you approach job searching and looking for positions?

WONG: I actually went to the websites of organizations I was interested in and I also applied based on positions that were open at that time. And I joined a professional organization called Women in Development. And through Women in Development I met a lot of development professionals who were very, very generous with their time and advice. So I actually organized or I asked for informal interviews. That was extremely important in my process. I believe I spoke to about 20 people through informal interviews, informational interviews, over 2 years. And people are so generous! I think perhaps a tip as well for job-seekers who are looking to leave academia. You’d be surprised by how willing people are to talk to you, especially if they’re in senior positions. They really want to give back, and in some ways nurture and give opportunities to the next generation of potential professionals in their field. So don’t be afraid to ask. I think 90% of the people I asked said yes. And some of them referred me to job listings or they would refer me to people who are looking to hire. And that’s how I got the majority of my face-to-face interviews. So cold resume and cover letter sending, not so successful. Referrals, much more successful, at least they’re willing to talk to you.

And I think I went for about five face-to-face interviews and every single interview I went to I think I just got better and better at kind of representing myself, what my skillset is. And also really understanding through these interviews what I really want and what my strengths are. And being able to convey that better. And the interview that I went through for my present job is quite different because like I said, I actually talked to the president a year before I got the job but there weren’t any positions for me. So I offered to volunteer. So that was also key and because I would volunteer, they knew what I was capable of. So volunteering enabled me to show that. So when there was a position available, they asked if I was interested and I went for a formal interview, went through the formal process and got hired. But before I was hired I had already been volunteering for them. Just being on top of their radar, and when something comes up, you’re the first on their minds.

BATIST: What was the interview process like in terms of what you would expect in an academic interview versus outside of academic. And you having to convert a CV into a resume and all of these kinds of things.

WONG: Yeah-in terms of the CV to a resume, Emily Seamone was instrumental in helping me do that. Again, from the Office of Career Planning at The Graduate Center. Big shout out! And with that resume I applied to lots of jobs, yeah. So again you know from a 15-page CV to a 2-page resume.

BATIST: Right.

WONG: Yeah. I think the key is also thinking about what job you’re applying for and really highlighting the transferrable skills.

BATIST: Yeah, absolutely. I guess you kind of touched on this a little bit, but what skills did you gain or refine during the PhD that are still important in your current position and that perhaps current students can work towards if they want to get into non-profits or just outside of academia more generally?

WONG: I think we downplay or we underestimate our abilities to function outside of academia. You know, we think we’re so honed that we don’t have enough transferrable skills or we don’t have these so-called “hot skills,” you know. The so-called outside-of-academia-needs. But that’s not true at all. What I realized as I was interviewing and especially when I started my job is that my PhD really helped me excel at my job. And I think that’s why I’m valued in my organization. And these skills are project management, right, and attention to detail. And of course writing and analysis which I think all PhD alumni possess, right.

But project management is huge. I think we underestimate how difficult it is to kind of manage a dissertation project, right. From interviewing people… And you’re doing it all on your own, you know, it’s you, you, you, you, you. But it’s a really complex project, right, to complete the dissertation. It’s not just about writing, it’s about managing the research process. Thinking about how to articulate something, thinking about how to re-arrange this manuscript which is, you know, just so detailed and in-depth and complex. And you know that’s really very transferrable to a lot of different job descriptions and needs. Attention to detail is big as well for my job, right. So I really have to kind of look at very specific criteria from the grant-makers and making sure that I fulfill all that. Because as you know, the grant-seeking process is so competitive, if you don’t get all your ducks in a row, you’re dismissed immediately because there’s a lot of good people who are going for the same funding. So that’s important as well.

Oh and something else I forgot which I discovered is that our teaching experience is huge in actually a non-teaching, non-academic career. Because your ability to manage a class, you know, of 50 to 30 to 40 people and your ability to in some ways lead a conversation, a very in-depth conversation. Being able to manage groups, that’s huge right. It’s really enabled me to lead meetings, lead projects on Zoom as well as in person. And being able to talk to people. Being able to articulate perhaps very complex ideas in a way that’s understandable to most people who are not specialists right. Including funders who might or might not know your work in depth. So that’s really key, yeah. And I do believe that we have a lot of offer. It’s just that we are not presenting that well enough for the interview.

BATIST: Yeah, you look at this like 15-page CV and you’re like “I’ve done nothing.” And it takes an objective external person to be like, “there’s 15 pages here, you clearly have. And no, not everyone has done this.” But we’re so engrained to always be thinking about the next grant and the next publication and it’s hard to reflect on what you actually have done. Seems obvious but is a lot of times not for grad students.

WONG: Yeah, for sure. And I think that’s one thing I wanted to add in terms of the job-seeking process. And just you know your career development process inside and outside of academia. [You want to] really find… I don’t know like reach out to mentors. Potential mentors and sponsors, people who open doors for you. When you’re trying to become an academic or when you’re trying to go on the tenure-track you have your professors as mentors. And I think when you’re seeking a career outside of academic, you should also seek mentors outside, that would be able to help you get a job or even after you get your job to kind of still support you in some way.

And I think I was very lucky with my dissertation advisor, Dr. Peter Eckersall, because he was very, very keen on me getting an academic job but he also supported me when I told him that I’m looking at alternative paths. And he actually introduced me to another professor at The Graduate Center. Her name is Helen Koh, she’s the Director of Strategic Initiatives. She’s a PhD who was a fundraiser, also led cultural non-profits and eventually she started at The Graduate Center. And she would take me out for lunch, check up on me every couple of months to see how I was doing on my job search. And she would basically give me a lot of career advice and be very encouraging. And I think this really helped to kind of, carry on, like amidst certain disappointments or kind of like roadblocks. And she introduced me to people. So it’s really about seeking people, networking, and not being afraid or too shy to ask for help. And people are really generous and they open doors for you so I think it’s something you should think about as well.

BATIST: I think we’ll start wrapping up. Is there anything else you want to add or anything we haven’t touched on yet that you wanted to speak on?

WONG: Just to round out, I think the three things that were really helpful for me: networking, finding the right fit, and just being very confident about the fact that your PhD is a big asset. Actually when I was looking at job descriptions, I’m like “Oh my gosh, I’m over-qualified and under-experienced.” *laughs* I was like “Oh my gosh this is going to be so tough.” But it’s really having confidence that your PhD experience counts in and out of academia. And you just need to present that.

(Music)

BATIST, VOICE-OVER: That’s a wrap for this episode of Alumni Aloud. I want to thank Melissa for sharing her experience in the non-profit . Remember to stay tuned for more episodes of Alumni Aloud, published every 2 weeks during the fall and spring semesters. Remember to stay tuned for more episodes of Alumni Aloud, published every two weeks during the fall and spring semesters. Subscribe via Apple or Google and you’ll automatically be notified of new episodes. Also, check out our Twitter and Career Planning website at cuny.is/careerplan for more updates from our office or to make appointments with our career counselors. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

(Music)

Back to Top