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VOICE OVER: This is Alumni Aloud, a podcast by Graduate Center students for Graduate Center students. In each episode we talk with a GC graduate about their career path, the ins and outs of their current position, and the career advice they have for students. This series is sponsored by the Graduate Center’s Office of Career Planning & Professional Development. 

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PAUL POWELL, HOST: I’m Paul Powell, a PhD student in the Chemistry program at the Graduate Center. In this episode, I sit down with Dr. Ma Sha. Ma earned his PhD in the Biochemistry program at the Graduate Center in 1994. When we recorded this episode, Ma was the head of Bioprocess Application Labs at Eppendorf. In this episode, Ma talks about his experience running the labs at Eppendorf, he describes his hiring practices for his lab. We cover his experiences after graduation, which included a career transition into marketing. Ma also contrasts the role of academic and industry scientists and emphasizes the importance of adjusting to the business mindset when transitioning into industry. Ma lives in Enfield, Connecticut and was interviewed over the phone. Hello! 

MA SHA, GUEST: Hello.  

POWELL: Welcome.  

SHA: Thanks! 

POWELL: We can just get right into it if that’s ok with you.  

SHA: Yeah. 

POWELL: So tell us a little bit about your job. 

SHA: Ok, so Eppendorf is organized by different business units. The one I’m in is called the Bioprocess. It’s the division that produces bioreactors and fermenters that is used for either automated cell culture or fermentation. Which, the industry of bioprocess produces biopharmaceuticals. And this is predominantly cell cultures that produce antibodies for cancer and various other diseases. And this is a really, really large market. The biopharmaceuticals are approximately 40, 50 billion dollar a year. One of the very largest biotech sectors. For example, the big names like Amgen, Genzyme, Roche. They’re all very big players and have billion dollar a year blockbuster drugs that are made of antibodies which are produced by [distorted] cells in the bioreactors. So that’s kind of the business we’re in, we’re manufacturers of these bioreactors. And my responsibility is applications development for bioprocess. I have two labs that I am responsible of, one in Enfield, Connecticut with five scientists. And then the other one is located in Munich, Germany and that’s three scientists. So all together we have eight scientists dedicated in developing cell culture, fermentation applications in the bioreactor for customers. 

POWELL: So none of your eight scientists are doing primary research on any cancers or anything, but the work that they do is sent out to these other big players who use their work to develop new drugs? 

SHA: That’s correct. We don’t do “research” research. We help customers to use our bioreactors and we develop applications for that purpose.  

POWELL: So you’ve given us a big picture of what you do. I wanted to zoom in a little bit and just ask you to describe what one day would look like. 

SHA: So a typical day for me, the head of the applications development, I’m kind of hands off. Basically, focus on optimizing my team and the resources that I have to get the best results within the time frame that is available. So my typical day starts with processing emails, lot of emails globally from the headquarters. So there are a lot of internal emails from various departments. We are responsible primarily I would say for three different sections of the business. One is product development. So we’re involved in applications aspect of new products, new bioreactors. We’re involved in design and there’s a lot of meetings that goes on with the development. So I either process those emails or I attend meetings.  

And then we are also responsible for internal applications support. So there’s applications groups that are customer-facing and then they would come to us if they cannot address it. So we would support colleagues globally that are Eppendorf internal. And then the third part is our projects in the lab, which I mentioned is basically just developing application examples to publish and to show to the customers how to do things. So my typical day starts with emails and meetings and then I really try to reserve the afternoon to go to the lab and then basically go over each project, check out the progress and solve issues that may be causing certain projects to stuck. And make decisions and prioritize things. So I would say, split into two-thirds office, one-third lab.  

POWELL: The way that you describe your typical day sounds roughly analogous to what a PI would be doing in an academic lab. 

SHA: Yeah. That is very similar. The big difference is the PI in an academic lab, the big function is developing to get money. And in the company, that is no longer a need because you get this money by annual budget and then you can focus on work. I would say a typical academic PI probably spends a third to half of his time on searching and applying and grant-related activities, and that’s not needed when you’re a PI for a business lab. So I think that’s a tremendous relief to be honest. 

POWELL: Yeah I can imagine that is.  

SHA: *laughs* 

POWELL: So I wanted to know a bit more about the experience of somebody that might be trying to apply to your lab. If you could describe some of the things you are looking for in an applicant. 

SHA: Ok, something that I’m looking for from the applicant? 

POWELL: Yeah.  

SHA: Ok. 

POWELL: So you have a list of resumes in front of you, which one are you going to… 

SHA: Right.  

POWELL: …give a call? 

SHA: Yeah, good point. So the first thing that’s obvious when I get a resume is their fit with our current requirements right. So you a job description and that job description says, minimum three years of bioprocess experiences, which includes industrial bioreactors. Very few applicants have the industrial bioreactor experiences. There’s actually a disconnect between the bioprocess business and the academic education. So I get a lot of applicants that may have cell culture but they may not have bioreactor. And if they say bioreactor in their resume and I look close, they’re often home-made flasks that they just call a bioreactor. They’re not the same as the industrial bioreactors that I’m looking for. So I would look for a fit first and ideally they would have that specific experiences. If they do not then I look for cell culture then I would later on train people for the bioreactor. So that’s the first thing I look, right. How much experience match that I have? I don’t have a perfect match, do I have enough match? Then I look at potential to bring this candidate up to speed.  

So the second thing I look for is the ability. I look for a progressive publication record and can you look at the resume of this candidate and see that this candidate is growing and publishing results. And that tells me, you know, how much confidence that I have if I take this candidate in that is meeting the requirement halfway. How much confidence do I have that this candidate is going to come up to speed quickly and able to perform? And the third thing for me that is very important is make an assessment on longevity. You know, I’ve have candidates that have had easily ten jobs in ten years. And those are the resumes that I quickly put away because I don’t want to be the next one year environment for this candidate. So I think it’s important when you build a resume, I would consider minimally 2-3 years at any given location. It’s important to build that track record to show that you’re not what I call a “career-hopper.” You’re trying to hop from one place to another and there’s always a reason you’re not happy. And I think that’s top three what I look when I try to hire somebody.  

POWELL: Ok. So let’s say you have two resumes in front of you and they are pretty similar in those top 3 categories. How would you then choose between the two? 

SHA: Then I would bring them into on-site interview. So once they come on-site I want to get a feel from the team about the candidate, not just me right. Because daily interactions, they’re going to work with the scientists in the lab. How well they fit in personality-wise plays an important role. That often will separate the candidates. And what I really do is when the on-site interview is done, then I ask my team to basically vote. Most of the time, everybody is basically on the same page. It’s an easy decision. I think maybe one out of ten or two out of ten that I end up to be the tie-breaker. For the most part, once I bring the candidate in, then the team will easily decide. 

POWELL: Checking with the rest of the group seems like it’s good for the whole lab’s morale. 

SHA: Right. 

POWELL: Your role in the company has changed. You’ve been there for a certain number of years, eight years now? 

SHA: Yeah, it’s eight years now, yeah. 

POWELL: How has your responsibility in the company changed over time? 

SHA: So when I started with Eppendorf, it was actually with New Brunswick Scientific, a US company that was famous for the shakers. New Brunswick shaker was the first shaker on the market I believe in the 1940’s. And they’re really number one player in the market for shaker. And they also have incubators, freezers and bioprocess equipment. So I started with, when Eppendorf purchased New Brunswick and wanted to move the lab from New Brunswick, New Jersey to Enfield, Connecticut. So I had started with them with responsibilities for two department applications. Both are in Enfield. I had about eight people still the same.  

Back then it was five in the lab and three in what’s called the Technical Applications department. And that department is responsible for application support. So I had both the lab and the application support responsibilities. And there’s some customer-facing support I was responsible of. And the major transformation in recent years is this implementing of the vertical bioprocess business unit structure. And as a result they integrated applications support to customer service and service support. I no longer have that application support piece of the responsibility. And they also integrated the labs globally. So as a result, I let go of the Technical Applications and I gained the lab in Germany. So now I’m responsible for two labs and not the customer-facing application support anymore. But for the most part I’m still in applications. 

POWELL: People can still call in and ask for support. It’s just, it’s no longer your job to help them directly? 

SHA: Not me, but they still can call Eppendorf. 

POWELL: Right. 

SHA: The support, the support structure is still there. But they integrated the applications with the service which I think is a good thing because in the past, what’s happening is, the service guy is going to think it’s an applications problem and the applications guy is going to think it’s a service problem. And that sometimes causes delay because neither one think it’s their problem. Now they’re integrated into one. 

POWELL: So the company’s changed their structure slightly to improve efficiency? 

SHA: Yes. And the customer satisfaction too. So now you’re application and service, you know, you can’t task this on to somebody else thinking it’s not your problem.  

POWELL: That makes sense. Speaking of thinking something’s not your problem… 

SHA: *laughs* 

POWELL: …what is something that has been particularly challenging at work that you’ve been able to overcome recently? 

SHA: That’s a good question. I would say, continuously being challenging, and it’s always been challenging, is the priority changes very frequently. When you compare maybe like a PI for the industry lab versus the PI in academics, the PI in academics gets a grant and it goes on for a couple years or even longer. So as long as that money is not run out, your goal remains to be the same. In the company environment, some project that is affiliated with project development may run consistently several years. But many of the projects that I would take from the customer changes very frequently. Like we have a plan for the next six-month to develop a [distorted] yeast application in our new bioreactor. Now I just got a request from a customer and there’s a big potential of multi-unit purchase and they wanted us to help with a particular application. And we would then have to put down the yeast project again. Just to give you a category of how severe that could be, I’ve been trying to re-start the yeast project for at least six years. Every year it gets pushed out by some more urgent project that is a higher priority. So that’s I think a big struggle for me and my team to resign to certain projects. That they might be asked to quit a few weeks after being asked to take on the project. Does that make sense? 

POWELL: Wow, that sounds… that does make sense. It sounds frustrating.  

SHA: Yes, so it can very frustrating, especially for the transition from academics. You’ve got to be able to pick up and drop and that’s just the business priority change.  

POWELL: Have you acclimated to that quick change?   

SHA: Me personally, yes, yes. I would say on average, I think many of my team are hired from the academics after the PhD and maybe one postdoc, take about two years to fully transition mentally. I’m acclimated a long time ago, I’ve been in the company environment for probably twenty years. And it’s pretty much similar, doesn’t matter what company you work in.  

POWELL: Makes sense. Last time we were talking, you mentioned a little bit about how challenging it was for you immediately after graduating from CUNY.  

SHA: Yes. 

POWELL: So I wanted to just ask a couple questions. Describe what your situation was at that point and how you navigated the minefield there? 

SHA: Ok, so I would say I graduated pretty smoothly. So my confidence was high after working at CUNY in Dr. Goss’s lab for I think three and a half years. She and I had a deal, you know. I told her that I went through three years of Master’s in China and lost time compared to other students in my class. *laughs* And I kind of wanted to get out as soon as I can. So I made a deal with her. She said, “publish two papers and you can graduate.” And I did it within three years. So she held her side of the bargain, I still respect her for that. And after I graduated, I had very confidence, because I’m the first one to graduate in my class. And now what I’m clueless in, is what’s next. I have no idea how to find a job, where to find a look for it. *laughs* I was under the naïve impression that after I’m graduating, you know, I send out resumes and everyone wants me. And it’s not the case. As a matter of fact no one wanted me. So it was just a clueless environment. So what I did, very silly approach… I don’t think anybody has done it. I targeted Harvard University, I sent out three handwritten resumes to every professor that was listed on the website that has any biology relevancy. Blindly. *laughs* 

POWELL: *laughs* 

SHA: And one day I got a call in the lab from a professor at Harvard University who does transposon research. And called me and asked me why I had applied to her lab. And I have no clue. I literally said, “I have no idea, I just blindly sent out three hundred application, I’m so sorry I don’t know what you do.” And she was very nice. She told me to you know, read more and come back to her. I didn’t, because I was actually very ashamed. I can’t imagine how a relationship would go on. So that was my approach. It really was a blind approach. There’s no logic whatsoever.  

POWELL: It seems like dealing with these issues for a lot of people, if it turns out to be as challenging as you’re describing… That could discourage them from continuing in their desired career path. Did you ever come to points where you considered changing careers? 

SHA: Changing careers, yes. So I did do, I did do a transition. So I don’t know if I mentioned it. When I was doing a postdoc at Harvard Medical School, I spent the evening going through the MBA classes. They have this extension school that has evening classes. So I took marketing, I took finance, I took investment. Just kind of give me an idea. I don’t have the money to do a real MBA, but is this something that I’m interested in? And it turned out I was. I thought the marketing was much easier than the biology. *laughs* So after that three classes, I decided to transition into the business. So my first job was at something called a Field Applications. And then after that I landed my second job as product manager for Corning Life Sciences. So I did make that transition to marketing. Yeah. So I did transition, I stayed in marketing for a good ten years. Just happened to land this job back in somewhat of lab work and I truly enjoy it. But I did transition to marketing for a long time. And I enjoyed it too. I was a product manager. I think that’s a really nice position to be in in the company. 

POWELL: Cool. So we’ve been talking a bit about transitioning and getting that business experience. So you have both business experience as well as your academic scientific background, which have come together in your current position. Not everyone in your company has that duel experience.  

SHA: True, true. 

POWELL: You know, you have some people as I understand it who are strictly on the business side and a lot of people who are working under you that are strictly scientists. When you’re working with those strictly business people but they need to understand the science, what are some techniques you use to communicate with them and get them the information they need? 

SHA: That’s actually a very good question. It’s somewhat unique. I would say I have seen some people have similar experiences. That have both the research background and business. But it’s certainly not very, very common. So I look at that as a unique advantage because I understand the marketing guys, I understand the product development guys because I was one of them right. So I understand what they need, to deliver to them, because at the end of the day, the people who are in charge of the business development and the product development sets the tone for where the company goes.  

When you’re working on bench, in the lab, you’re basically fulfilling a business need. You’re not trying to cure cancer or try to get a Nobel Prize, right. So you got to understand the role that I’m in in applications, is a supporting role. And once you accept that, and you learn how your customers are these marketing guys, then you know how to deliver the things that they need. And that helped me a lot. I see other people who are coming from the research area, get hired as a lab director and they constantly have misunderstandings. And sometimes, unwilling to develop things that the marketing guys is asking for. And that struggle is very common. 

POWELL: Interesting. People in CUNY right now, what kind of mindset should they try to adopt if they’re planning on getting into a lab similar to the one you’re running? 

SHA: The first mindset is the transition of, “what is the purpose of my role?” In company, you work for a for-profit corporation. And you’re a scientist to develop what they need you to develop. And that is a transition of the mindset. You’re not working for yourself, you’re working for somebody else. And are you happy with that environment or not, right? 

POWELL: Right. 

SHA: I think that’s a bigger issue because some of the people that I have to coach over the years, once in awhile, it’s going to be unhappy right. Because they get stuck, they worked on this project for three months and all of sudden we have to let go. And it just hits them really hard. So I think that’s the part of resolve. You’re going to probably let go of your dream of getting a Nobel Prize one day, working for somebody else, for their profit. And that’s just the reality of it. Accept it and be happy and see what you can do with your strengths. And a company will recognize you if you do a good job.  

POWELL: I think that’s a good parting message for the interview. Thanks again! 

SHA: Sure, take care. 

POWELL: Bye.                     

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POWELL, VOICE-OVER: That’s a wrap for this episode of Alumni Aloud. I want to thank Ma for coming on the show to share his experiences as head of the Eppendorf Bioprocess Application Labs. Remember to stay tuned for more episodes of Alumni Aloud, published every 2 weeks during the fall and spring semesters. Subscribe on iTunes and you’ll automatically be notified of new episodes. Also check out our Facebook, Twitter and career planning website at cuny.is/careerplan for more updates from our office or to make appointments with our career counselors. Thanks for listening and see you next time!   

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