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VOICEOVER: This is Alumni Aloud, a podcast by Graduate Center students for Graduate Center students. In each episode, we talk with the GC graduate about their career path, the ins and outs of their current position, and the career advice they have for students. This series is sponsored by the Graduate Center’s Office of Career Planning & Professional Development.

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JACK DEVINE, HOST: Welcome to another edition of Alumni Aloud. I’m here with Dr. Nicholas Cross. Thank you so much for joining us on Alumni Aloud.

NICHOLAS CROSS, GUEST: Thank you for having me, John. 

DEVINE: So let’s first start off with sort of your experience at the CUNY Graduate Center and what you focused on there. So, what questions drove your research at the CUNY Graduate Center? 

CROSS: Ah, good question. Well I would consider myself now a diplomatic historian and that is what I researched at the Graduate Center. It was diplomatic history in antiquity. I transferred to the Graduate Center program, History program already with an MA in History and I had already kind of dabbled in interstate relations. I did an MA Thesis on relations between Athens and one of its neighbors. So when I came to the Graduate Center I did most of my papers or coursework on this topic. Whether it was case studies or otherwise on how states in antiquity interacted with one another. What I was really interested in in my dissertation was why would independent, autonomous city-states want to collaborate in an official alliance. So my dissertation came out to be this study of interstate alliances of 4th century BC Greece. 

In retrospect this was a natural path for me. These were natural questions for me because before coming to the Graduate Center I had lived for several years in South Korea as well as Taiwan and other places in East Asia. These geopolitical hotspots on a daily basis I’d be thinking about questions of international relations and alliance obligations. When I lived in Taiwan I could, through binoculars, see China right across the way and when I lived in Korea I wasn’t very far from the DMZ. I often thought about what are the obligations of the United States in this alliance. So when I came to the Graduate Center I just took that background of living in geopolitical hotspots and applied it to the ancient world. Even after finishing the Graduate Center, my manuscript, revised dissertation, it’s not yet published but it’s on constructing interstate relations in Ancient Greece. I’m still sticking with that, those questions. 

DEVINE: So you have this personal history of living in areas of geopolitical tension and that creating a passion for wanting to understand those issues. And then when you went to get your MA you studied this further but not in modernity, but antiquity. And then you take this study in antiquity and you kind of move it forward to city-states and how building relationships with one another, alliances with one another, and what that means for their diplomatic relations. That sounds really fascinating. So when did you first make the decision to pursue a career at the United States Naval Academy and what steps did you take along your path to end up as an Assistant Professor?

CROSS: Thank you for that question. I did not anticipate working at the Naval Academy when I was at the Graduate Center. In fact, like many of my classmates we were just happy to get any job after graduation. The decision to pursue a career at the United States Naval Academy I guess starts with seeing the job advertised right? So I have a PhD and I’m looking for a tenure track position and I see there’s this tenure track position in Ancient Mediterranean at the United States Naval Academy. 

The first part of that really stuck out. Yeah, the job description as I read it in detail, it applies to me. This could have been written for me. Do they know who I am? 

But the Naval Academy. And I’ve had this conversation with so many people in academia. Really, the Naval Academy? Do you have to march? Do you have to salute? Do you have to wear a uniform? I think it’s not commonly known that the United States Naval Academy is a liberal arts college. We have, actually today we got our new numbers. We have 65 new majors for next year. We’ve got big departments. A lot of history going on here at the Naval Academy. So I saw the posting but at that time I didn’t really know what the Naval Academy was all about. I have some family members that served in the armed services. I didn’t serve. So I talked to a colleague who was a military historian who had gone to West Point. He convinced me to apply. He explained what the Naval Academy is all about. And then I talked to Dr. Joel Allen who’s there at the History Department at the Graduate Center. He was very enthusiastic that I should apply and with their encouragement, their urging, I put my name in the hat. 

Yeah then it was a regular interview process. You know you have the first Zoom interview. And that’s where I get to meet the civilian faculty in the department. And I was very fortunate to have an on campus interview. It took a long time. You know this is a federal government institution. Things take time. And then when I got the offer you know that took a little time after the interview, but it was a no-brainer. After you’re seeing what the place is like, meeting many of the midshipmen, that is the students here on campus, who are exceptional students. I wanted to work here before they even extended the offer. So I’m glad I listened to my colleagues’ advice and it’s worked out very well. 

DEVINE: So you see this job opportunity and part of you thinks “oh wow, this perfect” tenure track position, ancient Mediterranean history, this is gonna be great. But it’s at the Naval Academy. I don’t know that much about the Naval Academy. Is it different than a typical university? But through your research and your personal conversations with people you trust you figure out that this is actually the perfect place for me to go. That the students are great. It has great research opportunities. It’s a liberal arts university. Even though it’s also a military institution, it’s doing that sort of work that you want to be doing. You get to meet with faculty and students. Interestingly enough my best friend from growing up went to the Naval Academy so I’ve gotten to learn a lot about it as well. It’s a fascinating place. And so you ultimately ended up there at the Naval Academy as an Assistant Professor. But were there any other career paths that you considered? 

CROSS: You know, no. I came to the Graduate Center just a little bit on the late side of things. Before going to the Graduate Center I already had a Master’s, not only in History but also in MDiv. I had spent seven years in South Korea teaching English so I feel like any pursuit of another career came beforehand. When I went to the Graduate Center, despite the all of warnings about the, there’s a lot of competition, the market isn’t great, and you really gotta distinguish yourself in order to get a job, especially a tenure track job. I guess I’m stubborn. My wife supported me. That’s another big factor in all of this. So when I went to the Graduate Center I was all in. I wasn’t interested in alternative career paths after that point. And that was risky. That was risky. 

When I finished at the Graduate Center I did not have a full time job. I spent a year working as an adjunct. In 2017 I was very fortunate to get a substitute lecturer position at Queens College in the Classics program there. I am an ancient historian but I do have another foot in the Classics world, that is Greek and Latin languages. So I played that part there at Queens College. I then got a full time position at a high school, a STEM academy, for four years. So I didn’t have to pursue an alternative career. I was very fortunate to pick up these positions as I went along. So once I settled on history I guess the answer is I was committed and I was lucky that it worked out that way. 

DEVINE: So by the time you got to the Grad Center you knew that you wanted to become a professor. You were committed to this path even with the risks, the difficulties of the academic job market and the challenges that come with trying to secure a tenure track position. And then after graduating with your PhD, finishing your dissertation, you hopped around a few different places, worked as an adjunct, a lecturer, and continued in education but ultimately you ended up at the Naval Academy. But to take it back to the Grad Center for just a moment, what role did the Graduate Center have in your intellectual development and how did your experiences at the GC transform you into the Assistant Professor that you are today? 

CROSS: In so many ways the Graduate Center played a part in my intellectual and my professional development. I think maybe the first, the thing that stands out the most is that the Graduate Center got me to think in interdisciplinary terms. I think this might be unique to me. I was part of the History program at the Graduate Center but since my focus is on ancient history so many of my classes were in the Classics Department so most of my classmates were working on the languages and I’m working on the history. And it worked out so well, some of my best friends even to this day, they helped me with, you know, the translation issues and I could help them with the historical background. So the Graduate Center I think helped in that. 

Also I thank my professors for, like Joel Allen and Jennifer Roberts among others who pointed out programs outside of the Graduate Center that I wouldn’t have known unless I was at the Graduate Center. For example, in the summers I spent one summer at the American Numismatic Society. It’s in downtown New York. Another summer at American School of Classical Studies at Athens. The American School in Rome. Because I was at the Graduate Center I was made aware of these programs and of course had the contacts that the professors at the Graduate Center put me in touch with. So definitely thinking in interdisciplinary terms was helpful. I’ve mentioned the professors were great in contacts, but, hey, the professors are just excellent at the Graduate Center. Especially helping in challenging me in class and they’re impressive in their own way but I know my dissertation supervisor Jennifer Roberts, she seemed to know that my intellectual development is mine. She knew how to empower me to take ownership of this dissertation. That made me an independent thinker. Of course I could always fall back on the experts, but the Graduate Center allowed me to become an independent scholar as well in that sense of not relying on others.

Of course, the Graduate Center in New York City, it’s not a residential institution. We’re all commuting in and out. And it’s everyday I’m able to run ideas pass others so the set-up of the Graduate Center encouraged me to be an independent scholar which has definitely proven me well in jobs as a professor. And then of course being in New York and having the resources there of the New York Public Library and NYU and Columbia in addition to the Graduate Center. Great resources. So it’s definitely helped me be interdisciplinary, helped me be an independent scholar, but then you know, making all the resources available to me. I’ve got great resources available to me here at the Naval Academy but there’s many times that I look back with nostalgia being able to walk up to 42nd Street and sit in the Rose Reading Room and check out some books. 

DEVINE: So the Grad Center played this massive role in this interdisciplinary approach where you were not just working in ancient history but also in the Classics, building relationships with other students who were helping you out kind of understand the language which deepens your understanding of the history. Working with great professors like Joel Allen and Jennifer Roberts who guiding you along and making your ask the right questions and you into the sort of independent scholar that you wanted to be. And also the location of New York City with all these opportunities, these summer programs that you took advantage of, the library, the public library, the other universities NYU, Columbia. All these resources that you had access to really kind of created the environment that made you the person that you are today. So what were some of the challenges you encountered as you transitioned from graduate school to your career at the United States Naval Academy? 

CROSS: Well I think I touched on this earlier, the biggest challenge is finding a job. Especially in ancient history in the United States, how many positions are there? How many available positions are there? They’re limited. And there are a lot of brilliant young people, more brilliant than I am who are out there competing for these jobs. The biggest challenge was you know finding a job. I was not in the position where location matter and I think that’s tough for some people. They want to live in a particular area, but that wasn’t a concern of my wife or mine. Just finding a job wherever it is.

So once you find a job, you know, the challenge is, you know, landing that job. As I mentioned before, after finishing at the Graduate Center I did not have a job lined up and I spent an entire year as an adjunct. It’s very fortunate about the Graduate Center, because it’s in New York City, there are a lot of institutions of higher education and thus there some opportunities to be an adjunct. That however doesn’t pay all the bills. You can’t do that for an extended period of time. So as I said earlier I was very fortunate to get the position at Queens College afterwards. So that’s the biggest challenge, finding those open positions and then competing for them. 

Then I think a challenge is time management. This is an issue in any position we are in life, as a student or not. But in order to be competitive you need to have a strong CV. And when I was an adjunct or teaching a 4X4 load or teaching new classes, a lot of time is swallowed up in just the class prep. And then in my case I happen to have two children. That takes away more time. And then there’s meetings you have to sit on. And then applying for jobs, that’s a whole full time job in itself. I used to spend every Saturday morning applying for jobs. When in all of this am I going to have time to publish, to research and write, publish in order to really build up my CV to be competitive. I found the time. I had to work very hard. But those were some big challenges after finishing the Graduate Center. Just finding open positions and then building up that CV in order to be competitive. Then I was very fortunate to not be limited to geography and my family was willing to move wherever was good. 

DEVINE: So the biggest challenge is finding a job in the current academic job market. It’s not easy. There’s a lot of competition. A lot of people with PhDs and there’s less tenure track positions available. You were in a position, being in New York City with so many universities around, you could adjunct for a time and then find a lecturer position, but while you’re doing that it’s hard to take the time, and manage your time in a way that you can actually get a job. Because you still want to be researching and publishing and doing your own work, applying for jobs, you have a family, you have kids to take care of, so all these things sort of pile up and make it a real challenge to find a job. But you were able to overcome these challenges and get the job at the Naval Academy. What would you recommend to current graduate students interested in pursuing a career working in academia? 

CROSS: Well after everything I just mentioned there I’d say you gotta work hard. I don’t think there’s a playbook such as it is. But, for me, looking back, it took a lot of time. You have to be patient. Some colleagues who have even gotten tenure track positions as ABD. That’s excellent, fantastic. In my case, it took six years from finishing the Graduate Center until I was able to get a tenure track job. So you have to work hard and it may take some time. You have to be patient. If it does take that amount of time, of course I hope it doesn’t, but it probably will. You have to use that time with publishing, I think that’s very important for a tenure track position. 

For me, not only publishing, but being involved in the academic community. I think a lot of recent graduates missed out on this. I was a part of committees at the Classical Association of the Middle and West States, Middle West South excuse me. I was in the program committee there. I was also program committee of the Classical Association of Atlantic States. I was and am an editor with New Classicists. So just being a part of the academic community, of volunteering for those kind of positions that looks great on your CV. 

Making sure to have a great application package. Before leaving the Graduate Center I showed it with many of my professors, my cover letter, my CV, my resume, my personal statement and so on. Make sure to let others look at it. Every year if you are on the market more than a year, revise those. And then if you do get an interview, make sure you spend days and days going over possible questions, researching the institution more than you have before, have somebody do a mock interview with you. Because I was on the market for six years I think I got good at that. If you can get really good at those interview skills early on that will do very well. Then I’ll reiterate it hard, hard work but eventually it’ll get done. Whether it’s a tenure track job or not I can’t say but for me that’s what worked. 

DEVINE: So you’ve got to be willing to work hard, you have to be patient, it definitely can take some time, you wanna be involved in the academic world, and you wanna make sure that you have a good application package prepared. That you’re talking to the right people and they’re talking to you, that you’re preparing for interviews and making sure you know that sort of questions you’ll be asked. That’s really great advice. So I wanna thank you so much for joining us on Alumni Aloud. It was really great to talk to you today.

CROSS: It was a pleasure. And, hey, I miss the Graduate Center. All my best to you and everyone there.

DEVINE: Thank you very much. I appreciate that. 

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