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VOICEOVER: This is Alumni Aloud, a podcast by Graduate Center students for Graduate Center students. In each episode, we talk with the GC graduate about their career path, the ins and outs of their current position, and the career advice they have for students. This series is sponsored by the Graduate Center’s Office of Career Planning & Professional Development. 

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JACK DEVINE, HOST: Welcome to another edition of Alumni Aloud. I’m Jack Devine and I’m here with Doctor Phu Tang. Thank you so much for joining us. 

PHU TANG, GUEST: Thank you, John, for the opportunity to features in the podcast. And I was so excited to see your invitations. And it was my it is my pleasure to be here with you today. 

DEVINE: Well, we’re really excited to have you on the show. So we like to begin, you know, before venturing out to what you’re doing now and the path that you’ve taken to get there since your time at the Grad Center, we like to dive into what you’re doing while you’re at the Grad Center. What questions drove your research at the Community Graduate Center? 

TANG: So should give you a little bit story. Should I just go straight to? 

DEVINE: Whatever you like. We’re happy to hear a story. If you want to tell it. 

TANG: Ok so should I tell a bit about myself? So my interest in science started with my dad. He was a self-taught mechanic, so I remember he invented many automatic gadgets around the house, what we call a smart home today. So when it was a kid he did not buy me fairy tales books. You know, like I don’t know much about superheroes. He bought me science books. So my heroes were not Spider man or Superman like other kids. It was Thomas Edison’s and but I’m curious how we get. So I was into science, but I did not know what discipline I would join eventually. And then my mom got cancer. So that was the moment I wanted to be a medical doctor. So I could cure cancer, you know?  

So I went to College of Staten Island. So it’s a senior College of CUNY and it’s on Staten Island, NY. Most people don’t know about it. Still think of it as a. TV series, you know CSI when it says CSI people think oh, this is a TV series. It’s belongs with CUNY, so I joined a college with the thought I would be a medical doctor and, you know, cure cancers, you know, say the word, something like that. Turns out actually is not easy. And it being become very difficult. When I was about to graduate at my college and I when I found out about medical tuition, you know, the money you have to pay to go to school it just overwhelming. And at that moment, right, my thesis advisors doctors Loverde Sharon Loverde. She told me she was like, hey, what did you know that you can do a PhD for free in the USI was like, oh, what is that? What is a PhD? And she was like, oh, PhD is, you know, it’s like a high degree. There’s a high education, the graduate educations, and I was like, oh, I know a lot of that thing but in my country it’s not free at all. Have to pay for it partially. And she was like, no, go to the CUNY Graduate Center. They’re responsible for everything . You don’t have to worry about money. And I. Like, oh, cool. Just let me try that.  

And then when I when I joined her lab, I still don’t know what kind of questions in science that I really want to solve. But then, because my mind is always about cancers, and she’s from… her lab is a computational lab. Doing molecular dynamics simulation. But then, so I told her I said OK, this is my interest. Really have interest. I’m interested in in cancer so, is there any project, any topics that you are that you think that I can do that somehow related to cancer? And then after discussing with her for a while, we came out with two topics, which is drug delivery and also STAR assemblies. So the question is so why these things related to cancer? So the more I learn about these topics, I know that because most of the anti cancer drug or potential anti cancer drug doing drug development, they have a very good like, you know, cytotoxic toxicity. However, one of the most difficult thing for them to be developed successfully is that they cannot cross the cell membrane. So you can have the best molecules to cure cancers, but that if it cannot cross cell membrane, that is useless. So I was like, oh, OK. I’m not able to, you know, working with cancer patient directly, however. My research here at the CSI. Not a movie. The College of Staten Island. My work here at the College of Staten Island can somehow, you know, contribute a little bit into the limited knowledge of human cancer. And maybe, I don’t know. One day it can be actually helpful to do something. For the many patients. So I think of it that way, you know, so like I’m still following my dream in fighting cancer. But they’re not in a direct way, but more like an indirect way. But regardless, my work will be will contribute something to the to the vast knowledge on the other disease. So that’s my question. My scientific question. When I was at the CUNY graduate Centre, it’s always about fighting cancer. Maybe like in reality you really, you cannot follow your real interest directly. Try to find a way to connect your interest. The practical situations. So that’s so that you can come up with the best answers.  

DEVINE: That’s a really fascinating story about how you landed on your research and what you focused on and first of all, I just want to say I’m so sorry about your mom getting sick with cancer. 

TANG: Thanks. 

DEVINE: It’s awful to hear about that. And then there are just a couple of a few things that you mentioned that kind of just rang so true to me. Well, I was also into like Superheroes and fantasy. When I was a kid, like you’re talking about like your dad being into gadgets and that kind of inspiring you to get into science made me think, you know, now I’m the path of becoming historian or being a historian, getting my doctorate in history at the Graduate center. I used to watch like The History Channel and documentaries, and read certain books like when I was a kid and so set me on the path where I am today and maybe originally in a certain sense too rounded by way, I wanted to originally kind of make movies about history and then I turned out to end up going to the Grad Center to study more about it and write my own history, but also I know College of Staten Island and I teach at College of Staten Island. I teach history there. 

TANG: Oh, you did? You did you do you do. 

DEVINE: Yeah, I still do. I’ll. I’ll be there tomorrow. 

TANG: I’m so glad because like when it mentions the college to people, that was like, So what I use is like CSI. And it was like what movie you’re talking about. Movie. It’s like it’s a real college. It’s a College of Stat Island. We are one of the senior campuses of CUNY. 

DEVINE Yeah, it’s not crime scene investigations. It’s the College of Staten Island. So you’re thinking how that was kind of a place where you were inspired kind of with your own family history and personal history. Things that you were dealing with personally, combined with your education to lead you in a path. Ultimately, you didn’t choose to become a medical doctor. Became a different kind of a Doctor of research and trying to find ways to deal with the best ways to approach overcoming cancer and fighting against cancer and do research into drugs that can maybe pass through the cell membrane in the way that they can now. So that sounds really great. So when did you make the decision to pursue a career at open eye? What steps did you take along your path to end up as a scientific software developer? 

TANG: So let me tell you the story of my life. Thing is not going to be a straight line. It’s not like, you know, the plot that they usually show. Like what you think is like one straight life. And that reality is not like that. So that’s happened to me. So when I was at a CSI, I had some great publication with Doctor Robert. It was a wonderful time for me, you know. Actually it was so it was too wonderful to the point that I did not want to graduate because, you know, life was perfect for me. I have great college and then I have great freedom. I have great advisor. So everything was so perfect. But however, I felt like I wanted to do, I want to create something that could be that could have a real life application rather than publishing some articles and code today. Yeah. So that’s why I adventure outside of academics works and tries. And you know, just try my luck.  

So I applied for this company when I graduate, when I was actually when I was about to graduate, you know, usually. You try to find job when you’re about to graduate, not after you graduate because you don’t want that kind of stress. To put that kind of stress on yourself, so I applied to this company and then I got an interview with them at the moment. So at the moment I actually I did not have any professional skill in software development. You know, because like during, you know, as any PhD student, you, you you just try to. So you write some code or you can do some experiment, but it’s not a perfect experiment. It’s not a perfect code, you learn your way to do things, but it’s not a industrial style way to do things so I know how to write some, you know, code for myself, but I have never learned how to write code or software for other people to use. So I guess I was lucky to learn an interview with them as a fresh graduate. So the interview was really nice until they asked a big question. You know, I think that’s the biggest question for me. Like, do you want to move to Santa Fe, NM? So I was surprised and then stunned with the question where on Earth? Santa Fe. You know, is New Mexico actually in the US or is below the Mexico? I have no idea because like I spend almost half of my life in New York and then suddenly people mention New Mexico. Was like where is it? And then so I think I think that kind of question kind of threw me off. Then I kind of like stopped interview myself. And I just like my interest in the company drops to 0 you know because at the moment I did not want to move out of New York yet. Know the great Big Apple.  

So I applied so after that I applied to the Flat Iron Institute and got a post Doc with Doctor Pillai Kozio. So she is one of the leading scientists in solving heterogeneity in chromeo, as you say, it is one of the most fancy math institutions that money can buy. It’s like the utopia, you know, wonderful land for any math.  I have some publication with her and then from that but then at the end of my post doc I met a person. Her name is Julia Collieman. So she was the person who taught me how to do like a professional software development. And that was the moment I knew that I want like, I knew what I want to do next and I applied to Open Eye again this time and this time, you know, when the big question came. Do you want to move to San, Mexico? Was like yes. Because I think it’s a time for me. Because I I finally found something that I found my real. You know, it’s like I can combine molecular dynamic simulations, drug development together and then I can writing. I can create a software or a new method or something that people can use it and it actually making money.  

I think one of the problem with ours PhD thinking is that we never think about business. I took marketing class when it was when it was in CSI. You know I like I’m the only science. I’m only I was the only stem majors in the class. Then I was like. You can say many things, but without business, there’s no science. So regardless, you can create the best software or the best method, but then if there’s no funding, there will be no research or science. So I think we have to change, that’s why. I, at least for myself. I changed my way of thinking like instead of like just doing science. 100. I was only thinking like is there any way that we can profit from it so that we can continue this kind of research. Because when you become API in the future, maybe you become a professor. There’s something called grant writing. And it will be the most stressful thing for any professors or PI. So why don’t we just, you know, that’s why I was thinking like we have to combine science and business in the way that. That, that, that they can kind of like coexist. You know, one will support the other. So then that we can have a long term run. So it was like so that was the story I got running around from opener. I go to flop interview with Open Eye, go to Flatiron and then go back to interviewed Open Eye\ and then stay here. So it’s like a whole circle. You know, I guess it’s luck. Like, do you know if Tom Hanks movie called Forrest Gump? Yeah, I think my last. And then it just happened in a way that you never expected. 

DEVINE:  Now there’s a scene of you running from New York to Santa Fe as Tom Hanks. That’s a fascinating narrative that you constructed there with some really interesting tidbits, and I think also some really compelling advice that graduate students can use. Or like the kind of this back and forth, you feel like you’re living the dream while you’re getting your degree. You have a great advisor. You’re doing the research you wanna do, but you need to take a next step. You have to graduate. Eventually you have to get out of school. They’re trying to figure out what you wanna do, but at first you don’t wanna leave New York. You get this great opportunity, but it’s in Santa Fe and you don’t go. You go to Flatiron Institute. You make some connections is a great place to do work, to learn to, to apply theories and use mathematics and science. When you make these connections that open up this opportunity, but then you’re back to the same opportunity as before, you’re willing to make that jump. You’re ready to go to Santa Fe, and you’ve kind of learned in this process that it’s can’t just be about the science, but there’s got to be funding whether the funding is coming from the government, there’s got to be money coming from somewhere to back the research. So sometimes when you’re developing research, you gotta think of return on investment or the revenue that you can generate from it, or what practical applications that it has. So that’s really, I think a compelling way to think. More difficult for someone like me who’s in history. Were there any other career paths that you considered? 

TANG: I do. My real passion is actually to become a archaeologist. I was fascinated because my grandfather, he was a history professor. Back in Vietnam. I really love books. You know, I read most of the books in. He has a very lighting. His books are older than me and like, you know, history book, you know about the words about Vietnam, about so many things you know. So I always. Know my routine, my secret dreams. Actually become an archaeologist or historian. But my dad asked me, like, what can you do with that degree in Vietnam? You know, it’s like nothing we can do. Not much we can do with Vietnam. And like we, we just don’t really we. We don’t develop that much intellectually in history like for U.S. history, just story. Like, not much of the in the US. You know, you can actually learn something you can research in it, but we don’t have as kind of luxury in the country he was like. Maybe you can save that dream when you, you know when you successful in some other field, save that dream as a hobby, not as a career. Then when you create high, you can go back to. You know you can go around and dig up some skeletons or something like that, dinosaurs, but save it as a hobby, you know. Don’t let it go, but save it for when the times come. That was my dad’s advice and that’s why I’ll save it. And then hopefully when I retire, I I will have. I will have enough time, you know, to go around, take up some dinosaurs. Know live my dream. That would be my real treat. 

DEVINE: Yeah, it’s great to have a passion to hold on to that it’s not entirely tied to your career and something that you can kind of dream of later on, you can have different phases in your life. Can do one thing and then move in another direction after finding success. That’s really great. So well I’m going to turn back to the Grad Center just for a moment to ask you another question. What role did the Graduate Center have in your intellectual development? And how did the GC transform you into the scientific software developer that you are today?  

TANG: Of course first of all it give me the chance to meet with Doctor Sharadi, my advisor. So she gave me all kind of support and freedoms that any graduate student can dream of, you know. So she never stopped my crazy thinking, but she kind of like burned it in my mind. So, and that was her. She never imposed her ideas on me, but rather she she kind of like suggests she planned the idea 1st and then let me develop. On it myself, so and I and I really appreciate that the GC has the they have a very good facility for my research. What’s special about the GC is that it’s not one campus. It actually I think we have 12 seniors campuses and more than that? Maybe I don’t know about a correct number, but I just know we have a lot of campuses. Which campus has a have their specialty. So that is a very interesting thing about CUNY, or especially GC, is that we like you if you want to do some special research, and your campus doesn’t have it, but the other campus will have it. So you can go there, then do your experiment. So so I think that is a network that very specials to CUNY. So GC doesn’t have a lab. It doesn’t do any experiment there however is. It’s like a hub where you where it can send use to different campuses. Where you can do your specials experiment. So that’s one of the things that I think is very unique about CUNY is that we don’t have a one campus. Have many, many campuses, and they’re all connected together through.  

CUNY and like or graduate students. Just gives you a lot of chances to to. I don’t know if I should say it, but I fail one of the. And you know during. My when it was a first year student. It’s I think it’s I say one of the big exams there and then but you see you know, give me another chance to to repeat it. It’s they they really value your research over towards studying. You know, just some score from exam because they they evaluate your real research more. Oh yeah, and then one other thing I remember is that the in my first years, I took a lot of classes that, although it doesn’t relate it to my research. But then it helped me with the general understanding of the field. So it’s not something like like you do not. I did not take the clock just for my research. I took classes with many many subjects in my research, so that really helped me with understanding the field and then it gives you more choices. I don’t know what. Other schools, but here we have like 5 locations. Is this still true now 5 locations? Four PhD student or 4. 

DEVINE: Well, I think it’s different in each like. 

TANG: In each department. 

DEVINE: Yeah, in each department. it’s like different in history than it would be. 

TANG: So we have like 4 rotation maximum or you can push it a little bit to 5:00, but that rarely happened, but mostly for so. So the ways give you 4 rotations, you can choose yours the one that you like. Because sometimes you hear maybe heard about the experiment. But it will be very different when you actually do the experiment. Like for myself, I was able to work. I really wanted to work in cancer field, so I worked with Cancer Research lab. Back Cancer biology lab. So most of my time there, I tried to grow the sea worms. And then I wait until they’re pregnant, and then I killed. It just and I was like, I cannot do it. Cannot. I cannot kill myself, you know. Well from, you know, when you hear about these things, it’s very normal to. But when you actually do it the action, it’s just a different experience. You know everyday like I grow worms and then I kill them. And then I was like, Oh my God, I cannot. I cannot. Because I really can attach to them you. I will name them. Hey, look, you know, hey, you know. And then I can just not sacrifice one day. It’s just impossible for me. So that’s why I backed up from. Kind of blab and enjoy the computational lab. You know where I don’t actually have to kill anything. I enjoy that way. So in a way, do you see kind of like give you many opportunities that you that you can experience and then finally find a path that fit you the most? I would say that is the most important thing about GC is that they do give you a lot of. Past career to choose to experience 1st and then before you settle on it. So yeah, that’s much I can say about this. I’m not sure it’s. It sounds like it’s no good answer. I know you. You can’t cut it off. If you feel this is not right, but yeah, that was that was my experience. 

DEVINE: Well, that’s great. I think you hit on like a number of common themes that we hear from, but from your own unique perspective at the GC, the fact that you had a strong relationship with your advisor who gave you a lot of freedom to pursue the kind of. Scientific thinking that you aspired towards. This kind of diversity of thinking, exposure to different ideas and different backgrounds and rotations and different ways of thinking, the options for research and what you could do that you didn’t have to focus consistently on the same thing, but you were able to kind of, oh, you’re having. Work with all these worms, but you kind feel bad about what you’re doing. You go to a different lab. This flexibility and then also what you mentioned which I think is also a great thing and it also provides a lot of opportunities to work in different ways. As being the CUNY system as a whole, you’re not just campus, but you have the whole community system. Have City College, Hunter, Baruch, Queens, College of Staten Island, Brooklyn College, etcetera. A school system that. Massive public school system that serves like 270,000. So there’s plenty of opportunities for working, for teaching, for research, for all, the sort of stuff that you. Do while you’re here. So I think you understand what you know that you’re trying to, you know, find your range in the question. I think you really hit on some great themes. So what are some challenges you encountered as you transitioned from Graduate School to your career at Open Eye? And you already got into some of these but if there’s anything else that comes to mind? 

TANG: That was, I can tell you. So I think when you transition from academic to industrial so in terms of science it doesn’t change much. We all do basic science, but like I say, rise, the most different thing is that in industry we have to also focusing on business. Because so in academics, if you start on one question, it’s OK. Can. You can just keep, you know, doing your research and then dig deeper and deeper on that one question and the question fit your interests or passion or whatever. But in industrial, you’re you don’t have a you had your passions. Science, however, you also have to care about your customers’ passion. You know, so in open eyes we do. We do a lot of basic science. Good science, however, not all of our projects are actually compatible with our background because most of the time the projects have to come from the customers, whatever the customer wants. When we develop it. So as all. Environment is changing really fast. You know, it’s like this month you can work on this project and then the next month you can switch to another one. So it’s a, it’s a dynamic, more robust and also it involve a lot of independent thinking. I know in PhD you also have independent thinking, but most likely you hink along with your advisor. So your advisor give you a topic 1st and then you’re usually working with advisors to be on the to be on to. On the topic that that. But then and then you go to post Doc, you have more freedom and more independence. But when you go to industry, it’s like really you have to really be very independent. There’s no more, you know, step by step guidance anymore in this world and things changing really fast.  

One thing that I learned from Doctor Pillai Kocio when I was at Flat Iron institute is that making it about that about networking. I think she is one of the best person that I have ever met. Like she can just go and talk with anybody. That is one of the challenging for I think most of the PhD students. Try to transition from academics to industry. It’s like in academia maybe you don’t really need to talk much. You know, we don’t really need to talk to a stranger that much, but then in industry, you really need to. Like starting the conversations. First, you know in any kind of situation like you, you have to be more proactive in networking. So that is another challenging aside, when I try to transition here like when I was in a student. I usually shield away from conferences. You know, I usually come to talk with one or two people most at a conference. But then, but when I work started working with Pilar. I learned so much about networking and then I applied it and then I started talking with more people. At the conferences and I think that helped me a lot in my development and also in my transition like in industry did not.  

It’s not like a college setup. People have their own stuff. Everybody is very busy so. So you have to. So you have to be more active in a way to communicate with people. And also the and remember thing changing fully fast in industry. One thing can be like super hot today, but it can quickly change another thing tomorrow. So you have to keep your mind open. To many, many like you have to be aware of the situation when you go here, when you try, when you go to a private sector. Let me see what else is I think for. For me it’s just that I think the basic problem is. That’s a big problem for me, but I kind of like try and try to working on it a little bit more. And also, yeah, it’s one more thing is that the keep your mind open in learning new things because. Like I say, you never know what kind of what kind of skill will help you later on. Like I never learn about software development, but then just one day, Julia showed up and I was like, hey, Phu, do you want to learn Software development? You know, I can help you. Was like great. Let’s let’s do it. And who knows, those kind of things kind of like eventually help you in the long run. At least for myself, from my experience, is that network getting I think is the hardest things for PhD students to transition from Graduate School to industry or career. Is that you just you just have to talk more. You just have to sell yourself, you know more. Know like make yourself, like, more marketable in a way. 

DEVINE: Yeah, that’s a great way to end it because you’re hitting on two things that are related to each other, but are slightly different in the sense that you have to adjust to the fact that you are in a, if you’re going into industry, if you’re in the private sector that you are in, a profit driven machine that the company is trying to make money that it has. It’s kind of their business stakes that are taking place in that moment and that is going to kind of motivate the way that you’re acting, what you’re doing. How your research is focused is going to change the way you can kind of over obsess on one thing for too long. It’s not paying dividends. You have to move on. Unlike in academia where you can kind of keep diving deeper and deeper and deeper for a very, very long time, so there’s different incentive structure and then kind of related to that you have to market yourself, you have to go and talk to people, have to meet with people, you have to do this in academia in your own ways, but I think when you’re trying to land a job, especially in the private sector, you’re trying to move from job to job, build relationships at the job, you have to network yourself. You have to be able to communicate what you’re doing with your research. What your research is for, what it can deliver for other people, for the business, for other businesses, for your clients, for your customers. I think that’s those are really great pieces of advice and things to consider, especially for people who are considering moving into the private sector and this is related to the last question, so and you just gave really great advice So if you think of anything else, that’s totally ok. But what would you recommend to current graduate students interested in pursuing a career working in the private sector? 

TANG: This kind of question I I was asking myself. Before, so I would say a few things here. So first you need to find your passion. In science, now you must have it. In that which that should be your biggest passion. And then keep your mind open to all of the opportunities, even if it is in the middle of nowhere. You know. Just keep all of the opportunities and don’t stop learning new thing even though they are not related to your work initially. Because it is that one skill that will help you learn. Work with people who want to help you not because of their reputation. When I started, when I working, when I decided to join the Doctor Lab, she was a very new professor. And from CSI, you know nobody. People still think it’s a movie. It not because of her reputation that I joined her. It’s just because I know that she wanted to help me, so it’s very, very important that you work with people who want to help you, not because of their reputation. And the final one is that you must work hard every day and try to find fun in everything you do. I couldn’t find fun in killing pregnant worms. But I, but I find my fun in, you know coding looking at, you know like coding Python codes. So that’s really fun for me and I can do it everyday. So you must love it first before it love you back and luck will be on your side when your chance comes.  

So that’s much I can tell the student you know and then also do not sell yourself short. You are very special in a way that no other scientist can be, so always believe in yourself and then try. You must believe in yourself first before people believe in you. You know what I mean? So you just you cannot just go to people say, oh, I don’t know. I don’t know. I’m not sure about my method. You should not say it because. You should say Oh my method is a really good one, but is there any way that I can improve it? That sounds much better than I’m not so sure about my method. Don’t you know you are very special like you are very. You are very special individual. No other scientists can have your knowledge. You’re the only one. So, so, so, always believe in yourself. Then work really hard. You know? And then your chance will come. I would say. That’s much I can tell the college student and then Oh yeah also a connection. That is the most important thing. Your CV can be gorgeous, you know with 200 pages. But if you don’t know anybody, or if you don’t make any connection, I don’t think you will ever learn.I don’t think you will ever find your dream job. It’s like can nobody know you only your CV know you. That’s a two different thing. You should differentiate your CV module and the people know you. People know you is more important than your CV. Yeah, I think that that’s all I have. I don’t know if it’s too short, too much for the student, but I’m not sure. Hope it will be helpful to someone you know. 

DEVINE: I think it’s a lot of great points and really great advice. The notion that you should kind of pursue something that is your passion, that you love, work hard at it, make sure that you are not selling yourself short and that you’re believing yourself and your capabilities. And when you’re talking about yourself, don’t talk down about yourself. You can be open to learning and what you want to work with. People who want to help you improve and are concerned with that and build. I think those are that’s really great advice that can be helpful, not just grad students in STEM, but I think in social sciences and the humanities can be helpful. Whether you’re looking for a job in the private sector, in academia and other parts of the public sector, all these kind of things are. No matter what. So I just want to thank you so much for joining us on Alumni Aloud. And I wish you the best and all your future pursuits. 

TANG: Wow. Thank you so much John for the opportunity. And I really like you say you say it’s much better than me. Whatever I say, you make it sound wonderful. 

DEVINE: I really appreciate that. That’s very nice of you to say. 

TANG: The skill that only you have, but nobody else has it. 

DEVINE: I do my best. 

TANG: As I just say good luck to to all the students and also good luck to the part. I really appreciate the podcast. I wish I know about the podcast earlier. Maybe when I was at the CUNY, you didn’t have it yet. 

DEVINE: I’ve been working on it since 2021, but it dates back a few years earlier that I believe it started up in 2017 or 2018. 

TANG: OK, I see, but I don’t think there’s any like advertisement about it. 

DEVINE It’s there. There’s more now than there. Before but. 

TANG: Yeah. I did not know about this kind of thing. Was like, wow, there’s so many episodes. Did not know it. But my friends know about. I was like, oh, I didn’t know that GC have, but I think it’s because I listened to some of your old podcasts. And I feel very interesting. Like, like, if I have known about this podcast like, earlier, that that would be amazing, you know, to to, to new. Because. They can listen to, they can listen and then learn some experience like real life experience from the other students from the other students and not something you know when you read the website about GC, you have no idea what’s going on with the GC life. It just this past can be really helpful in a way that it give people real life experience, something that you cannot find on any website you know from from GC or QA. So I really appreciate that you continue this work on the on the podcast. Hopefully more people listen to it, you know. It’s like this is like a Wikipedia for how to survive this day. Kind of like guide for the student and I think the mandatory for all the students to listen to wanted to podcast per semester, you know? We were great. 

DEVINE: That that’s a that’s a really great way to describe it. And I thank you so much for saying that I’m I speak for everyone at the Career Office, whether they’re graduate fellow like myself, who kind of organize and do the interviews or everyone at the Career Office where we very much appreciate those kind words. So thank you so much and thank you so much for coming on the show. 

(Music)