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VOICE OVER: This is Alumni Aloud, a podcast by Graduate Center students for Graduate Center students. In each episode we talk with a GC graduate about their career path, the ins and outs of their current position, and the career advice they have for students. This series is sponsored by the Graduate Center’s Office of Career Planning & Professional Development. 

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ANDERS WALLACE, HOST: I’m Anders Wallace, a PhD candidate in the Anthropology program at The Graduate Center. In this episode I sit down with Lauren Suchman, who is Evaluation Director at the Institute for Global Health Sciences at the University of California, San Francisco [UCSF]. Lauren earned her PhD in the Anthropology program at The Graduate Center. When we spoke, Lauren had just started her job as an evaluation officer in the Global Health Sciences at UCSF. In this episode, Lauren tells us about the importance of shaping a narrative around your career choices, the benefits of preparing for post-dissertation life early in your PhD training, as well as the sacrifices and unexpected joys of applying research in outcome-driven contexts. Lauren lives in San Francisco and we connected via Skype.  

LAUREN SUCHMAN, GUEST: I hope I can actually be useful because I mean I’m still working at a university so it’s not like I’ve left academia altogether. But I’m not going into like the tenure-track, I’m not going to be on that path. So I thought maybe my experience would be useful for people who, you know, are interested in research but aren’t you know, going to be like professors.   

WALLACE: So first of all what’s your name and what do you do for a living currently? 

SUCHMAN: My name is Lauren Suchman and I also just started as an Evaluation Officer in Global Health Sciences at UC San Francisco. 

WALLACE: So how did you come into this health program evaluation program that you’re currently in.  

SUCHMAN: I actually found it online. I was starting to think about post-dissertation life and I thought that I should just start looking around and seeing what was out there that I might be qualified for and that might be interesting to me as a next step. And I found this job posting and it seemed perfect. I had budgeted a lot more time for a job search so I was a little bit surprised when I applied and got this much faster than I intended to. But it was just such a good fit that it seemed like the right thing to do.  

WALLACE: And you found it on a job board, was this a generic job board? 

SUCHMAN: So UCSF, their global… the Global Health Sciences has their own jobs website that includes both UCSF postings and then sort of general postings from other places that are just related to global health sciences. So I had been using their job board just sort of to take a broad sweep. And this job happened to actually be at UCSF which is a very reputable program and just happened to work out well that way. 

WALLACE: So you said you had in mind for awhile that you weren’t going to go in to seek a tenure-track professorial role. And you sort of allotted time to do a job search. So at what point in your PhD did you realize that you thought you don’t want to do a full academic route? 

SUCHMAN: I don’t know if I’m supposed to say this, but I never really wanted to. *laughs* 

WALLACE: That’s a perfectly good answer. *laughs* 

SUCHMAN: There was a time after I had been teaching. I did my GTF [Graduate Teaching Fellowship] at Lehman College for three years. And after I had been there for a year or two, I really liked it and so I thought, “oh maybe the professor, you know, tenure-track thing could be for me.” But that was sort of short-lived and I had always kind of planned around not being a professor from the moment I started grad school. So I sort of took outside jobs and things like that accordingly to kind of boost my resume for other kinds of positions. 

WALLACE: What’s your dissertation about, for people who might make a connection between your work and your research? 

SUCHMAN: So my dissertation research is actually on the Ending the AIDS epidemic campaign that New York State is running. And the campaign is to bring AIDS below epidemic levels across New York State by 2020. And I got interested in that because, before even coming to CUNY I had been doing global HIV work for awhile. And I kind of continued to do that through my career at CUNY and intended to keep doing the international work for my dissertation. But one of the jobs I took as a part-time job was with the New York State Department of Health working on a program evaluation for them. And so this kind of fell into my lap through that. And I really liked that work and it was related to my interest in HIV so it all came together. But as I’ve transitioned out of CUNY, I’m interested in getting back into the global work. So that’s part of the reason for looking at the Global Health Sciences.  

WALLACE: That’s really a synergistic fit it sounds like, between the academic and the practical side. 

SUCHMAN: It’s worked out very well. I mean I think that for me I’ve always been very conscious about having a very particular narrative to my career. And so I think I’ve just been very conscious of following certain sort of narrative streams like HIV, reproductive health, global health, inequality, things like that. That’s how I’ve been able to locate the kinds of jobs that have been good for me. 

WALLACE: That’s so interesting, because you had done public health work before joining an anthropology program. So what was your rationale in entering the program, given that you never wanted to see it through as an academic career per se.  

SUCHMAN: I still have a little trouble answering this question in a way that I think is coherent. But it’s basically, I think I wanted to learn how to think about the issues I was grappling with in public health from a perspective that wasn’t public health. Like I knew there was something deeper going on but I couldn’t quite figure out what it was and how to articulate it. And public health doesn’t quite get there. And so I actually, I thought about doing like a DPH or something, a doctorate in public health. 

WALLACE: Oh ok. 

SUCHMAN: So that’s sort of a more practical degree to go into public health research management or something. But I decided to do the PhD in anthropology because it just felt like I would be able to think through these things more fully. And I mean it really has worked. It’s been quite a slog *laughs*. 

WALLACE: *laughs* 

SUCHMAN: But I think I’ve gotten that out of it so that’s been pretty cool. 

WALLACE: That’s fascinating actually. So what’s a typical day like for you? 

SUCHMAN: I am extremely spoiled right now in my new role. So I actually, I negotiated really hard core for this job when I first came in because I didn’t really need it. And so I kind of felt like I could ask for everything I wanted and I had nothing to lose. And I also, I recently worked on a project with Stanford, doing some data analysis and coding for them on women in the workplace. And so I was really gung-ho about like being a woman who was taking a stand in the workplace and fighting for my rights and stuff. And so I was able to negotiate starting for my first two months at half time so that I could do more dissertation work. So right now I’ve kind of been, I’ll go into the office for maybe one full week and then I’ll take one week and just do dissertation stuff. It’s a little fuzzier than that, you know, because sometimes they need me for things. Because I’m sort of managing this project but it’s, yeah. I mean today I’m working from home and the office culture in GHS is pretty flexible. People travel a lot and also work a lot from home so it’s really nice that way because it’s, you know, it’s not about the facetime hours it’s just about getting the work done which is nice.  

WALLACE: Could you talk a bit more about the actual work itself and what you spend your time doing? 

SUCHMAN: Basically I’m a senior researcher on this project. It’s called African Health Markets for Equity. And it’s been a five year project and I was brought in for the last year. They had another senior researcher who was working part-time and needed someone full-time for this last year to sort of do all the analysis. So the project is looking at increasing access to healthcare in Kenya and Ghana through increased access to private clinics, specifically family planning clinics. But I think the sweep is sort of broader than that in terms of who they’re hoping to reach.  

WALLACE: Wow. 

SUCHMAN: So at this point I’m just getting started and we’re basically just trying to make sure all the IRB renewals and all the boring things are in place. But moving forward, I’ll be in Kenya for a couple weeks in January and Ghana for a couple weeks in February running field trainings. We have a bunch more qualitative data collection coming up and then I’ll just be running the coding and analysis and all of that. That’s my job, basically. Yeah. 

WALLACE: That’s fascinating! But it sounds very anthropological. The research side, you’re doing qualitative research, you’re going to the field, you’re interviewing stakeholders if you will. I suppose the folks who go and use these clinics as well as the administrators? 

SUCHMAN: Yeah so we’ll actually be training field staff to go and do those interviews. So I won’t be doing them myself. I mean I think the thing about sort of making this translation between anthro[pology] and ethnography and sort of more applied stuff like the stuff that I basically do is program impact and evaluation. Sorry, not evaluation, but implementation science. You know, it can’t be that labor intensive right, you can’t just attend all these meetings and just take notes about everything you see. Like that’s not going to happen. And it’s less, it tends to take a less of a sort of broad look at these overarching themes. They’re really interested more in, “is this working, why or why not, right?” 

WALLACE: Targeted. 

SUCHMAN: Yeah because you know, this is funded by people who need to see certain things come out of it. But I think there’s also room, we’re hoping we’ll get a few papers out of this and I think one of them could be a more sort of overarching look at you know, something like healthcare consumerism. And that would be a more anthropological bent in the analyses.  

WALLACE: What do you find most rewarding about your work besides the flexibility and the half time? 

SUCHMAN: *laughs* Well the flexibility is nice. I think especially coming from anthropology at CUNY, I mean inequality is the name of the game. And so if you are someone who is concerned about inequality and you work on that, then working on this kind of project that’s trying to provide some sort of solution to that is pretty cool. 

WALLACE: So the ability to have an impact on these programs rather than simply observing and analyzing them for an academic audience. 

SUCHMAN: Yeah, I mean I’ve never been the kind of academic who just wants to write a paper in a journal, you know. 

WALLACE: Yeah. 

SUCHMAN: So it’s nice to see things actually happen. 

WALLACE: And in terms of the workplace that you described. It sounds somewhat similar to academia in terms of a fair amount of independence, getting the work done rather than punching the clock. Are there differences from academia in terms of the work environment or culture of the institution, which is based at a university? 

SUCHMAN: That’s a good question. I mean I think because it’s still a university, it’s hard to say. It’s obviously a different university so there are differences in the environment in that way. And where I work is basically, I mean UCSF is a medical institution. That’s all they do. And my office is basically, you know, near San Francisco General Hospital and affiliated in some way. So I think in that environment, is a little bit different. But yeah, otherwise, you know, I would say it’s comparable. 

WALLACE: A lot of our listeners, they are considering myriad issues in terms of whether to stay in academia and pursue a professorial job or leave and do a non-academic job, for a variety of reasons. It sounds like you’ve enjoyed the lifestyle in your new role, which could be everything from flexibility and compensation and benefits?      

SUCHMAN: I think the biggest transition is just leaving graduate school, right. I mean this is the first job I’ve been in out of grad school where I’m just sort of taken seriously as a professional and most people actually assume I have my PhD already. It’s just making that transition out of graduate school when you suddenly start to see other people take your work very seriously and take you seriously as a professional in a new way. It doesn’t really happen in graduate school that much. And starting to, I think, value yourself in a new way. Particularly in terms of financial compensation, right. I mean the salary that you are offered as someone who has a higher degree, once you actually come out of graduate school, seems extremely substantial to all of us, right, no matter what field you’re in. And so, I mean, whatever in San Francisco, I’m probably still considered poor, you know. This city is as expensive as New York is not more at this point but you know, just having that kind of security. And honestly signing up for like health and retirement benefits was great! *laughs* 

WALLACE: *laughs*  

SUCHMAN: Yeah very exciting! *laughs* Yeah sort of starting to own your professional identity post-graduate school is a big deal. And I think you know, gender is sort of my wheelhouse and especially as a woman, you know, we’re kind of taught not to own that stuff in the same way. And you really, I think, have to learn how to own that and exert it, right. And this project that I’m working on, it quickly became clear to me that I’m mostly in charge. And so, I kind of realized that one day and I was like, “ok, I guess I make the decisions now.” But you know, it was kind of hard for me to do because I’m used to having other people make the decisions and I’m used to not being the expert. And now you’ve just got to trust that you’ve gotten to that point and just do it, you know. 

WALLACE: So what specific skills and knowledge did you gain in grad school that have prepared you for your current work? 

SUCHMAN: A lot of stuff I gained was through my, through the work that I pursued outside of classes and things like that. So since I came into the program knowing that I didn’t want to be a professor, even starting my first year I took a part-time job as a project manager at the School of Public Health. I had several jobs throughout the course of grad school that have sort of built on that experience and especially recently, thinking very carefully about maybe, gaps on my resume and what kinds of skills or thematic areas I might want to specifically fill in beyond academia. But I think within CUNY itself, one of… I think one of the best skills you learn in graduate school is to learn how to not be harmed by, you know, negative feedback. Because you get so much, sort of, thrown at you all the time, it’s… And I would say that my advisor is actually pretty good about that and tempers it very well. But you know, you’re always kind of being critiqued for things, you’re always being held accountable in a way that I don’t think it is in other fields. And that’s a really good skill to carry into the workplace outside. 

WALLACE: So a thicker skin. 

SUCHMAN: Probably. And just saying, “oh this is the critique I got, here’s what I’m going to do with it.” You know, rather than sulking over it or not putting taking it seriously or whatever.  

WALLACE: What skills would you recommend current GC students could deliberately go out and hone for themselves if they were, say, wanting to work in a field like yours? 

SUCHMAN: I think project management, I think is something that you do sort of develop in grad school. Especially when you’re doing your dissertation work, you have to manage it for yourself, for the most part, right. But for me it was also really helpful to have that outside experience. And when you’re doing your dissertation work, from beginning to end you know, just be really deliberate about you know, what’s the best way to do this? How do I plan this? What’s my timeline? What’s my budget? All of those things, right. That is really useful outside of, outside of academia. I mean when you’re doing your dissertation stuff, you’re managing your own project. You’re your own senior researcher too so you know, own that stuff and put it on your resume. *laughs* 

WALLACE: *laughs* Anything else that comes to mind? I mean that’s a pretty central piece. 

SUCHMAN: I wonder if there are, you know, online trainings or something like that for pretty basic, you know, learning. I mean even just learning different kinds of software. Like you know, in our program we learned how to code qualitative data with Atlas. Or even something, I mean I think you could even take a class or two outside of your sort of own department that could be very useful. Like I thought at one point about taking one or two classes in the Public Health department, you know, that had sort of a more quantitative, data-bent or something. Just because I knew that would be useful for me in the working world. 

WALLACE: Yeah. 

SUCHMAN: So I think you can, you know, capitalize on what’s already covered in your tuition anyway, you know. 

WALLACE: Yeah that’s good advice, to keep an open mind beyond just your own field and what they expect. Has being in your current work changed your opinion about the value of a PhD or the process or ways you would have done it differently? 

SUCHMAN: I think one of the hardest things about grad school and by grad school I mean a PhD, a doctoral program. Because a Master’s is totally different but… Is that you go through so many life changes during the time because it’s so long, right. You do it at a time in your life where you’re becoming an adult in a different way. And as you’re transitioning out of that, having been so poor for so long, I mean I really like my financial management skills were like not good. Because I had so little money it was like, what was I going to do with it, you know. And, and so then to come out and kind of realize, “oh I need to figure out, now that I can save money, how much do I save?” Like where do I put it? What kind of retirement plan do I want? Financial literacy isn’t something we talk about in grad school because we just joke about how poor we are all the time, but then, what do you do when you come out the other end? Like you need to know how to deal with that. So I wish I had started learning about that stuff a little bit earlier.  

WALLACE: I think it’s true. And it changes self-perception too once people say, “think about your money.” For many people it could have a certain perspectival shift. 

SUCHMAN: There are tons of podcasts out there. I started listening to a financial podcast somewhat recently that I love that’s called So Money with Farnoosh Torabi. She’s based in Brooklyn and yeah, I mean like as you have to start doing that stuff yourself then it is really helpful to have that advice to fall back on. 

WALLACE: So I feel like we’ve covered most of the questions that I had. Are there things that I didn’t ask that you think are relevant? 

SUCHMAN: I did take one class during grad school that was totally irrelevant to everything. I took a poetry writing class at City College with a bunch of undergrads. And it was great! And I think that one of the nice things about being a grad student, I mean this whole podcast is, “ok what can you do to get ready for your career and stuff.” But in grad school you have to kind of maintain your mental health too. And so for me that was taking a poetry workshop, you know, and so I think there’s that aspect too. Both preparing yourself for the workplace but also maintaining your sanity while you do that.  

WALLACE: Yeah, that’s really good advice. Self-care and knowing what self-care works for you and for everyone that’s listening.  

SUCHMAN: Yeah! 

WALLACE: Is a really important piece that people forget. 

SUCHMAN: Yeah, so that worked well for me. I think it’s just good, you know it’s helpful to know what’s out there. And maybe you’ll get a cool professorship. And if not then maybe there’s something else out there that’ll be great for you.     

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WALLACE, VOICE-OVER: That’s a wrap for this episode of Alumni Aloud. I want to thank Lauren for coming on the show to share her experiences transitioning out of PhD life with our listeners. Remember to stay tuned for more episodes of Alumni Aloud, published every 2 weeks during the fall and spring semesters. Subscribe on iTunes and you’ll automatically be notified of new episodes. Also check out our Facebook, Twitter and career planning website at cuny.is/careerplan for more updates from our office or to make appointments with our career counselors. Thanks for listening and see you next time!   

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