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VOICEOVER: This is Alumni Aloud, a podcast by Graduate Center students for Graduate Center students. In each episode, we talk with the GC graduate about their career path, the ins and outs of their current position, and the career advice they have for students. This series is sponsored by the Graduate Center’s Office of Career Planning & Professional Development.

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ERIN JOHNSTON, HOST: Hello and welcome back to another episode of Alumni Aloud! My name is Erin Johnston and I am a Ph.D. Candidate in Music Theory and a Graduate Fellow with the Office of Career Planning and Professional Development. I’m thrilled at the opportunity to speak with alumna Dr. Tae-Danae Bradley. Thank you so much for being here with us today.

TAI-DANAE BRADLEY, GUEST: Thanks for having me, Erin.

JOHNSTON: So I would love to start by having you tell us briefly about yourself, maybe touching on which program you attended at the Graduate Center, where you’re currently working, and what your position is there.

BRADLEY: Yeah, happy to say a little bit about my background. So, I was in the Ph.D. Program in Mathematics at the Graduate Center. My advisor was John Terilla, and I finished in 2020. I think in May of that year, so that was a very interesting year. I defended on Zoom, which was interesting. So, I guess in a nutshell, my research focus there was in mathematical structure in language, actually—natural language, like the kind we’re speaking now—using tools from an area of math called category theory—which is a little bit abstract, but it helps you organize structures and think about things from a bird’s level viewpoint—together with tools that were really inspired from quantum physics, actually. So it’s kind of a not traditional pure-math dissertation topic, but I really enjoyed doing that. 

So, like I mentioned, I finished that in 2020, and I’m currently at a company called SandboxAQ. This is a technology company focusing on AI and quantum technologies. Not quantum computing—so I kind of have to make that caveat—but there’s other technologies that are inspired by and really harness laws of physics at the quantum level in particular. So I work there as a—I guess technically my title is Research Scientist, but I like to see Research Mathematician, since that’s what my background is in. So that’s what I’m doing now.

JOHNSTON: That sounds amazing! I wish I understood all of it. But that sounds like it’s an exciting career. I would love to actually hear you expand on your time at the Graduate Center, and when you were in pursuit of your Doctorate in Mathematics, what questions really drove your research, and do these questions continue to influence your work at SandboxAQ?

BRADLEY: Oh yeah, so what drove my research. So when I was in college, that’s really where I developed an interest in math. I guess I would say I was a late mathematical bloomer, because I didn’t really like that subject until my twenties. But also around that time, I also developed an interest in physics. So when I got to the GC, I knew I wanted to study some sort of mathematical ideas that related to physics, but it was a little bit nebulous. I didn’t really know what exactly. But at the same time, I’ve also really enjoyed seeing when ideas that feel disconnected and disparate are actually, when you look deeper, connected in a fundamental way, when you probe a little bit deeper. And I think, especially when I was a student, even before the Graduate Center, in math in particular—I don’t know about other folks’ math experience, but mine wasn’t great growing up, and you usually feel like these different math ideas are islands. Like, one year you learn about geometry, and then the next year you learn about algebra, and then whatever. They just feel spatially and temporally not related. But the more you study, the more you realize actually they are intimately related. And many ideas in mathematics, and even ideas that are outside of math are sort of related to each other in really beautiful ways. But you only can see that, I guess, when you lift your feet off the ground and see things like you’re flying high in the air and looking down at the landscape. So I’ve always been attracted to those kinds of problems. And so, when I got to the Graduate Center, I didn’t really know exactly what I wanted to do, but I think I was really interested in math classes and in faculty that were doing work in this area. And so, that’s why—so my advisor was John Terilla, and I really enjoyed working with him because he thinks in this way, as well, and was doing some really exciting stuff. So I think that kind of guided me when I was at the Graduate Center. And the kind of things I do now at Sandbox, I get to do research that’s a little bit more of an academic flavor, even though I’m in industry, but the kinds of problems that I gravitate towards are still of the same flavor. Like, “oh, how can we use this idea to tackle this other problem that may not be in math, but maybe it’s connected to it in some interesting way?” Or “oh, maybe there’s a math idea and some phenomenon in physics—they don’t seem to be related, but something juicy seems like it’s going on. Let’s explore that a little bit more.” So that’s been the flavor of math that I enjoy, and I had that during my time at the Graduate Center, and I would definitely say that’s still something that piques my interest in mathematics even today.

JOHNSTON: Yeah, that’s amazing that you could find that throughline, like you have this interest you have in your PhD program but that really affects what you’re doing now in your job at SandboxAQ. And I feel like that’s the dream!

BRADLEY: It is! I agree.

JOHNSTON: So it sounds like you’re doing a lot of important work. It would be great to hear about the steps that you took to lead to your current position as Research Mathematician—or Research Scientist, whichever—depending on who you ask maybe! And maybe also about the steps you took post-graduation to lead you to where you are today.

BRADLEY: Yeah! So, it’s a little bit non-traditional, and maybe not transferable. So, I’ll tell you how I managed to get to where I am today, but I don’t know that I would advise it. So, I guess the answer is I started a blog. So I should explain this. When I was in graduate school, I also developed a strong interest in science communication, or basically finding ways to demystify complex ideas for wide audiences. This was something that I initially got interested in for my own benefit. I wanted to do well in graduate school, and I mentioned that I kind of came into math later in life, so the ideas were very new to me and quite challenging. So I would have to, like, “okay, I want to pass my qualifying exams. How do I break down these concepts in a simple way so that I can retain the information?” And then over time, I started to collect my thoughts in a blog, which sounds so nerdy. I admit, this is the nerdiest thing you could possibly do. But it just turns out that it got a pretty nice following and I guess other graduate students at the time were taking similar classes and maybe had similar questions that I had that I was trying to address for myself. And so it kind of gained some popularity. So the long story short is, I got my job shortly after I defended my thesis, because folks at SandboxAQ knew about my blog. They read one of the articles and it just happened to be that I was working on some tools and techniques in my dissertation that were very similar to some things that they were doing. And in fact, at that time, the team was actually based inside of Alphabet, the parent company of Google. So Sandbox is kind of like a spin-off. So I got an email from these folks from Alphabet: “we’re really interested in this, do you want to have a conversation?” I’m like, “wow! I graduate in a year from now, I would love to have a conversation and maybe this conversation can turn into a job!” And it did. And it did. So that was a little bit funny. And it’s not really traditional in that sense, but I’m really glad that it worked out that way.

JOHNSTON: That’s amazing. I really feel that it just goes to show that sometimes certain things you pick up that are maybe more like hobbies—or still related to academics—but they can really grow into something you never thought possible. So that’s incredible! I think it’s definitely a unique way to get a job, but at the same time, it just shows that just because you’re doing something for yourself or something that can help with your studies, that it couldn’t eventually help you as either a transferable skill or getting someone’s attention—like an employer’s attention. I think that’s great!

BRADLEY: Definitely.

JOHNSTON: Yeah, along the way, I guess you got your job right away, and that kind of let you into SandboxAQ because, as you said it was a spin-off of Alphabet. So I guess, along the way, did you ever consider any other career paths? And did you happen to explore them or consider exploring them?

BRADLEY: Yeah, that’s a good question. The short answer is no, but there’s a reason for that. So, it’s a little bit funny. Even though I was in the doctoral program in math, I kind of had a feeling that when I graduated I didn’t really want to go fully into academia, but I also didn’t want to leave it. But then the only alternative that I knew of at the time was to go fully into industry, but I didn’t want to go fully into industry, but I still wanted to dip my toes into it. And so, it was a little bit funny because as I looked at the menu of job opportunities, I saw two choices, and I didn’t really want either fully. But there was nothing really in the middle. So I was a little bit stuck, and I didn’t’ really know what to do. So to answer your question, I wasn’t actively pursuing other career options, but I also wasn’t actively pursuing any option because I didn’t really know what to do. It’s kind of funny. And so, this contact that I got from the folks at Alphabet at the time, was so timely. I mean it was really remarkable, because what I was able to do—so I essentially joined on as a postdoc at the time and I was able to continue research projects, which I really enjoy doing research, but I also had opportunities to kind of foster my interest in science communication within the company at the time. So it was like a really perfect fit, and I think that’s why, when the conversation was started, it just felt perfect. Like, “ah! This is a great fit. The things they’re looking for are exactly the things that I like to do.” And it was great because it’s not really a traditional job in that sense. So, again, that’s my personal story, although I sometimes tell this to folks and they’re like, “wow, that’s so awesome, how can I do that?” And I’m like, “I don’t know! I don’t know.” It’s not helpful from that perspective that I don’t know, but I wish there were more opportunities like that for other folks, I just think that the intersection between academia and industry is a really thriving, exciting and vibrant place to be. I think on the horizon more opportunities like that will open up, but that’s kind of how I did or did not pursue different careers.

JOHNSTON: It’s really interesting. It really shows that sometime, it almost like serendipitous. It just happens and there’s no rhyme or reason—I mean obviously sometimes there is a rhyme or reason. But to tell someone that you got this opportunity that fits so well with you, but to tell them how to do it for themselves is another story, right? But at the same time, putting yourself out there in the way you did it with the blog, or maybe they do it some other way, or doing some sort of internship or postdoc, or… it kind of leads them to that kind of opportunity. Even if it’s not your first opportunity out of graduation.

So maybe talking a little bit more about your time at the Grad Center, how did you feel that your time at the Grad Center contributes to your intellectual growth? And how well did you feel that the GC prepared you for your career?

BRADLEY: Yeah, so the GC was fundamental in my career now and in my intellectual growth at the time. Part of my motivation for going to graduate school, as you can infer, I didn’t go the GC saying, “I want to work at Sandbox when I grow up.” or something. I didn’t know about them. But my real motivation for going to graduate school—I was very interested in things happening in math and physics, and as an undergrad, I just didn’t feel I had the competence to enter those conversations, but I wanted to be able to do that. Or at least know what’s happening and to be equipped with that language so that I can read papers or attend talks. As you know, sometimes it’s like a different language. It’s like academia has its own language. I guess it’s English, but it doesn’t really feel like it sometimes. So as an undergrad, it’s a little bit difficult. So I wanted to be equipped in that way. And that’s what my time in the Graduate Center did. It was really difficult. I will say, I think it took me 6 years. From 2014 to 2020… those are probably the six hardest years of my life so far, but it was so transformative and it’s like I got what I wanted. I got from that education exactly what I was hoping to get. And I wouldn’t be able to do the research and have conversations and even participate in the kind of science communication that I am now if I hadn’t gone. So I’m really grateful for my time there. I learned so much, and even had a wonderful advisor and really great friends. It was definitely an important impactful time that I had.

JOHNSTON: Yeah, I mean it sounds like, it’s nice to hear that you go what you wanted out of that experience. And I feel like everyone comes to the GC with different goals. Sometimes it’s a specific career or a specific place they want to work, and other times like for you, it’s more about being able to be part of the conversation that you otherwise didn’t have the terms or the knowledge for. So that’s great to hear! 

I know that you mentioned some steps that you’ve taken to get where you are today, but I was curious to know any challenges that you encountered along the way, especially since you graduated. If any!

BRADLEY: Yeah. Oh, no, definitely. They’re there. So this is a great question. I think that the one that really comes to mind, I don’t know a pithy way to describe this, but I think there’s like this new level of freedom or flexibility now that I’m not in school that I had to get used to. So just to be concrete, even your first few years of PhD, and obviously college, there are these milestones that are very concrete and if you reach those milestones you have success. So like, pass the midterm, for example. Pass your class, for example. Pass your qualifying exams. Then when you do that, you pass your oral exam. Then when you do that, you successfully defend your thesis. So there are these milestones, like I said, or things that you do that someone imposes on you, like structure, and when you check off these boxes and this structure that someone gave you, you’re like, “ah, I made it! Ah, I made it! Okay, I’m going somewhere.” But what do you do when you check the last box, like defend your thesis? Okay so who’s gonna make the next list for you? You are! And then how do you know what to put on the checklist? And how do you know if you can check it off or not? And how do you know if the things on your checklist are reasonable and that you can accomplish them within your lifetime? 

So this took me so long. I think I’m still trying to figure it out. But I think this was like, “oh, no one is telling me what to do now. Hmm.” So that was a little bit challenging because, I mean I think for me, for research in particular—so what I’m speaking to now are like research goals—if there’s something that I’m interested in, how do I know what success looks like in that case, and if I have a goal for this, how do I know that I can accomplish this goal in a reasonable amount of time? What are my expectations? Should I expect to solve this in one year? Or what if it actually takes me twenty years? And at which point do I give up and try to have another goal? Or do I keep going? I don’t know. I mean, this has been hard. I’m like, “oh! I didn’t think about this. Huh.” And that’s taken me some time to get used to. And I think it’s like, I went to the GC straight out of college, and obviously before that I was in highschool and before that, middle school. So I’ve basically been in school my whole life, which I loved. I loved. And so, it was a little bit challenging to be like, “oh, I’m not in school anymore, and I really enjoyed that, so now what do I do? How do I structure things and what does success look like there?” So that’s been difficult. I think it’s getting a lot better. I mean, I’ve been out of the GC for four years now, so it’s taken me a while. But that was definitely a surprise. I think there was one day where I was kind of like in a daze. I was like, “huh, this is interesting.”

JOHNSTON: Definitely a big change! I feel like a lot of people feel like that when they finish their coursework and maybe are focusing more on dissertation-writing. And again, you get that kind of freedom. But you still have that goal in mind, right? You still have that, “I have to work toward finishing my dissertation, finishing my thesis…” That you, I guess, after you graduate, you still have that openness of time and maybe more flexibility in terms of what kinds of projects you want to work on, but there’s no longer that end goal that you’re always working toward, or that next goal… yeah, I didn’t think about that!

BRADLEY: Yeah, oh no! Sorry to scare you. I mean, it’s fine. It’s all fine.

JOHNSTON: No! I mean, it’s good to be aware of that because sometimes you just get so focused on whatever your next goal is you don’t realize that there’s not a clear goal after that, necessarily. Or at least academically, or in terms of career.

It’s been amazing speaking with you today. It’s opened my eyes to a lot, so I’m hoping that our listeners also have enjoyed it. Maybe to close us off, I would love to ask you, what advice would you offer to graduate students, especially those interested in pursuing a career in your field, but really to any graduate student who’s looking to graduate soon?

BRADLEY: Yeah, no, that’s a great question. I think if I could speak to folks who maybe are interested in the kind of career that I went in, I can speak to that since I’ve gone down that road. Meaning, I kind of see myself as a non-traditional mathematician-type person. I do math, but it’s kind of motivated by things that are happening right now, as we speak, even in machine learning and some stuff in physics. So I’m standing on a bridge that’s connecting two realms. So folks who are maybe interested in bridge building or being at the intersection of fields. For math in particular, I think my advice would be to be aware of something. So, it’s not maybe direct advice, but there’s a think that you should know about, which is: in the past, I don’t know, ten-ish or so years, I think there’s been this really wonderful trend of ideas in mathematics that used to be used historically a certain way, and I’ll just even be explicit and say, sometimes people might think of pure math as this thing that folks do because it’s beautiful (and it is), and it’s almost just like beauty for the sake of beauty, and a little bit like poetic beauty or something, and it may not have any real tangible applications to the real world. But I think, in the past ten or so years, there’s been this sort of trend that those ideas that traditionally haven’t found applications to things that folks may care about in the real world actually do have applications. And I think that’s really wonderful. I’m going to paraphrase, but there’s this mathematician who said, a few years ago, “there’s this glittering array of non-traditional areas in mathematics that are finding non-traditional applications in the world,” and to me that’s just really wonderful because that’s almost like you’re opening up these portals in the landscape that is STEM. And you’re finding this beautiful golden thread of mathematics that’s always been there, but now you can sort of apply new ideas—or old ideas—in new ways to tackle new problems or old problems in new ways, and that’s an exciting time to have interdisciplinary work or bring folks together. Some of my collaborators are in physics, or are in machine learning, or across different areas and we can put our heads together and solve new problems. And I think this is a trend that’s happening, which is exciting. So, earlier I said I wish that I could give concrete advice to folks who are like, “how can I do that?” And although I may not be able to give explicit, “oh, apply for this job, do this, X, Y, Z,” I think it’s just encouraging for folks who are interested in this area to know that something interesting is happening. People are discovering really cool connections in math that maybe weren’t there a few decades ago, and that’s opening up some new possibilities, which I think is an exciting time to be in STEM and also to be a mathematician. So, I guess my advice would be: be aware of that.

JOHNSTON: Thank you so much, and thank you again for joining us again. I wish you a lot of luck and success in your career, and I hope that you continue to really thrive and enjoy what you are doing, just like you are now.

BRADLEY: Thank you, Erin. It’s been great chatting, and good luck to you as well!

JOHNSTON: Thank you!

BRADLEY: Thanks.